Transcript

[music]: [00:00:00] Knock, knock, hi. 

Will: Knock, knock, hi.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to knock, knock. Hi, with the Glocamfleckens. I am Dr. Glocamflecken Flannery. 

Kristin: I am Lady Glocamflecken, also known as Kristen 

Will: Flannery. in your life? 

Kristin: More than I care to admit. 

Will: Thank you all for joining us. We got a fantastic guest today. We got Dr. Nock. 

Kristin: Yes. 

Will: He is a, uh, he’s on Tik TOK, Tik TOK, Dr.

TOK and, uh, on a lots of social media. He does a great job. Fantastic. Uh, uh, educational edutainment content, 

Kristin: science communication, science 

Will: communications is a big deal for him. And he does a great job with, he’s a PhD in pharmaceutical sciences. He makes all these videos about science and and Misinformation.[00:01:00] 

We talk a lot today about misinformation. 

[music]: Yeah, 

Will: which is just it’s just so irritating to me he brings a lot of great points about how to approach misinformation how to The best strategies on how to correct it and how to set people on the right path. And, and, uh, we talk about our shared, uh, uh, annoyance for supplements, people promoting supplements.

It’s just all kind of, we touch on so many different things. 

Kristin: Lots of things. It’s a, a potentially a hot button episode. We’ll see. I don’t know. I don’t think it should be. And our audience is usually pretty, uh, level headed and intelligent, thoughtful. 

Will: We talk just the perception of pharma and, and I think it’s all interesting and pharma is a necessary thing in our society.

Like we need it, 

Kristin: but we 

Will: do talk about like, you know, him being in the pharmaceutical industry and the, the, the perceptions they’re in, um, and, uh, I [00:02:00] think it’s really 

Kristin: interesting. A lot of thought candy today. 

Will: Did you ever take organic chemistry? No. It’s got me thinking about organic chemistry. Yeah? I’m just like, and it’s not like great thoughts.

No. Because that was such a hard class. With the C’s and the O’s and the lines and then the Carbons, oxygens, and bonds. The bonds, the covalent bonds. The 

Kristin: double, 

Will: the triple bonds. The quadruple bonds? I 

Kristin: don’t know. How many bonds can you have? I didn’t take the class. I’m doing pretty good considering I didn’t take that class.

We 

Will: did not ask him that. We 

Kristin: forgot. 

Will: Dang 

Kristin: it. Yeah. 

Will: That’s okay. Maybe next time. Oh, before we get to our guest. Oh, what, what’s going on in Pittsburgh? 

Kristin: I know something’s in the water. 

Will: We, you guys, Pittsburgh has, uh, you guys have, have shown up for the, for. Really have. For the ticket sales on our live show. Yes.

We had to add a second show in Pittsburgh. 

Kristin: Right. We sold out so fast on the first one that we had to add. A second one, and that one also is also selling. So you guys are the best. 

Will: If you’re interested, you’re in Pittsburgh, like check, go to the website, [00:03:00] Glockenflagel. com slash live. Uh, and, uh, hopefully there’s some, still some tickets, but we are so excited because clearly the community.

They’re big Glock and Flecken fans. Yeah, 

Kristin: I think those are going to be some really fun shows. And there’s been a lot of enthusiasm so far. 

Will: So, uh, so thank you to Pittsburgh. 

Kristin: We’re really excited to come out there and see you guys. It’s our first, my first time to Pittsburgh. Yours? 

Will: I have never been to Pittsburgh.

Kristin: Yeah. 

Will: I hear so many wonderful things about Pittsburgh. You’ll have to 

Kristin: give us all the good recommendations. The people are wonderful. 

Will: The, the, they got the Steelers, Pittsburgh Steelers. That’s right. Good football team. 

Kristin: Black and yellow. 

Will: Not that you care. 

Kristin: Right. That was the black and yellow. Oh good. Yeah.

Remember that? 

Will: Look 

Kristin: at this. 

Will: You know something. I do. That’s good. Can you name it? You know, there 

Kristin: was a period of my life where I knew all of the NFL teams. Do you know why? Because your 

Will: dad? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He’s a 

Kristin: big football fan. And he would, he wouldn’t just watch and keep to himself. No, no, no, no. He had to talk about it.

Will: Oh, maybe. How to teach 

Kristin: us things. Okay, 

Will: that’s it. Maybe I need to start doing that for our kids. Alright, 

Kristin: let’s 

Will: get to our [00:04:00] guest. Okay. Here we go. Dr. Nock.

Today’s episode is brought to you by the DAX Copilot from Microsoft. DAX Copilot is your AI assistant for automating clinical documentation and workflows, helping you to be more efficient and reduce the administrative burden that causes us to feel overwhelmed and burnt out. To learn more about how DAX Copilot can help reduce burnout and restore the joy of practicing medicine, stick around after the episode or visit aka.

ms. knockknockhi. That’s aka. ms. knockknockhi.

Uh, we are here with, uh, Morgan McSweeney, PhD, Dr. Knock on social media. Thank you so much for joining us. 

Dr. Noc: Good afternoon. Thanks for 

Will: having me. Now, you are the first guest we’ve had with a PhD in Pharmaceutical Sciences. Oh boy. So, so that, that sounds like a challenging [00:05:00] PhD program. Can you just, like most, a lot of our, our listeners, you know, are, are in the medical field.

Uh, many of them have gone to medical school. In seeing what Kristen went through at the beginning of, she started out in a PhD program. Honestly, it might, it might be, like, harder to do the PhD thing. Oh, a 

Kristin: hundred percent. 

Will: Like, I don’t know. Yes, I mean, we 

Kristin: get, we don’t have to sleep in weird places like you do.

I say we, I didn’t finish, it’s a whole other story. Uh, but, but yeah, like, intellectually. Less memorizing, I would say, but more, um, actual, like, critical thinking and new ideas. Well, there’s some 

Will: critical thinking in med school, but Morgan, how was your mental state during your PhD program? 

[music]: You know, 

Dr. Noc: it started pretty high and then it came down a little bit and then it went back up again.

That’s good. So my wife actually is It’s also a physician, so we have the same duality of experiences. I think, you know, it’s [00:06:00] also hard, but in a totally different way. Like, like you’re saying, a little bit less memorization. There’s more, honestly, one of the biggest challenges during PhD is like holding yourself to deadlines and stuff.

Because sometimes your mentor gets busy and you could easily go six months and not make much progress or something. And so a big part of it is like staying focused, doing the reading you’ve got to do, and sometimes experiments don’t work anyway. And so there’s a challenge there too, and like, it’s the Sisyphean, you’re rolling the scientific ball up the hill, and who knows if you’ll ever get to the top.

Will: So pharmaceutical sciences, I, It sounds like, correct me if I’m wrong, like you were actually interested in organic chemistry once upon a time? Is that, is that fair to say? 

Dr. Noc: That’s, it’s fair, that’s what it sounds like. 

[music]: Not at all the case 

Dr. Noc: though. So surprisingly super broad within pharmaceutical sciences.

You’ve got the chemistry side, You’ve got the biology side and I was much more on the biology side. Oh, okay. But then you’ve also got super, uh, like R& D, like you’re finding a new drug for the very first time and you’re screening tens [00:07:00] of thousands of molecules from the bottom of the ocean or something all the way to very translational where you’ve already got a molecule, you know, it works pretty well.

Now we’re figuring out what’s the best way to deliver it to the kidney or something in the body. So I was more on the biological side and more on the translational side. 

Will: Okay, well, that makes sense with your content too, because you do talk a little bit more about how molecules and medications, drugs, you know, interact with the body and in different ways.

Uh, and so you’re still doing that kind of work then. I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s in addition to the social media. Stuff, right? 

Dr. Noc: Yeah. My quote, quote, real job is your real job, drug development. Um, so I’m not in, yeah, I’m not technically in big pharma. I’m actually in biotech. Um, little pharma, little pharma, baby pharma, , 

Kristin: baby pharma, which 

Dr. Noc: is, there’s a split in the industry.

And not a lot of people know this. Big pharma itself doesn’t do much research and development these days. The way it works is smaller companies take an idea. Usually it spins out of an academic lab. They [00:08:00] show it works pretty well. And once you’ve vetted it in like a phase one or phase two clinical study, then the big companies are like, okay, we’re going to purchase your entire company and take it from there.

Kristin: Oh, wow. I thought he was going to say the drug. Nope. The whole thing, the whole company. 

Dr. Noc: How do you feel about that model? Well, as someone who’s on the smaller fish side of things, it really turns it into either, uh, like a dichotomy win or lose type of circumstance. You’ve got like your one platform drug that’s either going to work really well, and someone’s going to be interested in taking it forward, or it’s going to flop, and your whole company’s going to dissolve in a few hours.

Very 

Kristin: similar to the PhD program, really. Like, it sounds like you didn’t ever graduate, you’re just still doing that. Wait, so, 

Will: so it’s, it’s, it’s really like boom or bust, because, I mean, you have, obviously as a smaller company, so you got, you have so much riding on this one idea. And then if no takers, then that that’s it, like you’re run out of money.

Dr. Noc: Yeah. You get to your phase two and you don’t ship, you don’t show [00:09:00] superiority or something, or you have a toxicity signal. No, one’s going to be interested in taking that forward. And some companies do have, there is sort of a mid tier where they’ve got three or four different pipeline drugs. And if one of them fails, oh, we’ve got this backup, but, um, you know, investors are going to want to see progress.

They’re going to want to see what you’re working on. Can this actually help people? Is it not just cool in a scientific, academic sense, but are people going to benefit from whatever you’re doing? Um, which is a cool aspect in that in order to succeed, you have to have really strong evidence that what you’re going to do is going to help people.

Um, it can’t just be, you know, it’s not going to get funded if it’s just a curiosity. 

Will: Right. And when, when does the, the FDA process like come into play with this drug development? Is that, is that after the small fish gets eaten up by the big fish? No, it’s right in the middle. Mid 

Kristin: chomp. 

Dr. Noc: They’re like shining a, they’ve immersed the lantern down into the ocean.

Um, between the small fish and the big fish, 

[music]: uh, 

Dr. Noc: making sure the fish get along well together. [00:10:00] 

[music]: Okay. Oh, man. So it’s 

Dr. Noc: right when you’re going into human clinical studies for the first time is really where the FDA gets involved. They say, show us all of your toxicity data you’ve done. Show us your manufacturing data to show it’s safe.

You don’t have accidental bacterial contaminants or stuff like give us these hundreds and hundreds of pages of documentation. Uh, and okay, now you can do a small phase one clinical study. 

Kristin: And then once the clinical studies go well, then the big fish says, I’ll take that. Thank you. 

Dr. Noc: That’s right. The phase one is, show us it’s safe.

The phase two is, show us it’s safe. And is there a hint that maybe it’ll work? And once you get that hint that maybe it’ll work, that’s when typically, Big Pharma gets interested and they say, okay, you need to now go do a phase three clinical study with hundreds or thousands of people, which is really hard to execute.

Um, but we have a lot of experience doing those big studies. So how about you let us do it 

Will: now? Big Pharma. I mean, you say big pharma that, I mean, that has in this, in this day [00:11:00] and age, that has a, that invokes a particular feeling in a lot of people. And I’m sure you’ve seen, you’ve felt this on social media in particular, right?

It’s just automatic. I feel like some people’s brains just get immediately. That’s, this is a bad thing. Like this, you’re a bad person for, is that something you, you feel like you’re fighting personally? Like, especially with all the content you put on social media, like how do you respond to something like that?

Or what are your thoughts? What’s your thought process there? 

Dr. Noc: Yeah, maybe a good example to pick a drug. Um, Like insulin is a good example. Obviously it’s critical to have people making insulin at large scale in a safe manner, regularly inspected, shipping it out all over the country. Um, the part that’s bad is then you go and charge as much money as you possibly can, as much as the market can bear for that product.

Um, and so there’s a lot of value in The first part in vetting drugs that can be used to improve human health, we’ve seen the GLP 1 drugs initially developed [00:12:00] for, you know, metabolic disease and diabetes, then for weight management, but now they’re finding, oh, it also has benefits for kidney disease and, you know, risk of dementia and cardiovascular disease and all these things.

None of that would have existed if it weren’t for the big pharma. Now, I do think there’s probably ways that the model could be improved in some states, to go back to the example of insulin, like the state of California said. This is way too expensive. We’re going to open up our own manufacturing plant, I think they said.

I don’t know what the time frame for that happening. Um But like clearly you can make these therapeutics at costs way below what they end up getting charged for in the marketplace. Uh, and so that’s the bad side. But on the good side, there’s a lot of, you know, inherently good people, scientists and physicians and nurses and everyone working in so called big pharma.

whose main interest is developing drugs that are safe and effective to help treat a wide range of diseases. Right. Yeah. 

Kristin: As always, I feel like this is a nuanced issue and the internet doesn’t like nuance. Like, that’s what it [00:13:00] all boils down to, right? You’re either in one bucket or the other, there is no in between, but yeah, if, if we had no pharma, that would not be good either.

Will: Obviously like that’s, yeah, we. That’s not a sustainable way to have a society 

Dr. Noc: thrive. 

Will: You could 

Dr. Noc: have some sort of public, you know, you could envision the government’s going to say, okay, we’re going to replicate big pharma, but from the public sector, basically, which there’s people who probably have know much more about this than me.

There could be other ways to do it. I don’t know how much of our current way of doing it is sort of, we’re like grandfathered into this is the way it’s been done. And this is the way the lobbying interests have entrenched. or whatever. 

Will: Um, but well, one thing I realized is too late in my career is the impact that That like pharmacy benefit managers have in, in this whole process, these they’re the, the shadowy kind of middlemen between like pharmacies and quote, big pharma, the, the [00:14:00] manufacturers who are making these medications.

And they don’t get nearly the amount of blame that they need to for like drug prices and setting prices. And the, I feel like the. The anger that is generated in the general public toward, toward medications in general is disproportionately levied against Big Pharma versus something like Optum or Express Scripts, you know what I’m talking about?

Dr. Noc: Yeah, they’re hiding in the shadows. 

Will: They are. Very well. Are you, 

Kristin: look, okay, cause I’m not in any of these fields, okay, so I’m kind of the, the foil here, but are, are you, Saying that Big Pharma kind of is used as a scapegoat by these PBMs. Is that accurate? 

Will: Well, I don’t know, maybe not directly, but, but I think that it’s just Big Pharma is a, is a, like a, uh, a term that people use to, to just generate anger.[00:15:00] 

Yeah, around the health, anything related 

Kristin: to pharmaceuticals goes in this. It’s gotta be big pharma and 

Will: it’s big pharma. It’s Eli Lilly. It’s, it’s Pfizer. It’s, it’s these greedy billion dollar corporations. And I’m not saying that those like big pharma companies are faultless in, you know, setting insulin prices and things like, like, like you mentioned, Morgan, but, um, there’s this other thing, 

[music]: right.

Will: That’s this huge wrench in the system that people don’t know about. And so they kind of. They’re happy to 

Kristin: have people not know yeah, 

Will: I’m sure they love it. Like, yeah, it’s Big Pharma. They’re the ones, for sure. 

Kristin: If we’re back in the fish analogy, are they like the, the bottom feeders, or what? 

Will: You know, yeah.

They’re the little parasitic organisms that clean the teeth of the You’re supposed to pick them out before you cook the fish. 

[music]: But 

Will: I’m sure it must be frustrating for some, for someone like you, Morgan. I mean, [00:16:00] you’re not, I would not, I’m not saying you’re synonymous with big pharma, but, but someone in the pharmaceutical industry who might, you know, receive the ire, the 

Kristin: science side of things 

Will: to, to, to have that kind of criticism in your field.

Dr. Noc: Yeah, it’s interesting. And over the past few years, there’s an increased, um, sensitivity around the term. scientist or researcher. 

[music]: Like I’ve 

Dr. Noc: done a few campaigns with like public health divisions for a couple of different states. And at one point they were like, don’t use the term scientists. Like, don’t say scientists have shown that this is safe because that evoked like mistrust in what you were saying.

Talk, use the word researchers instead of scientists. Isn’t that wild? 

Will: Oh my God. All 

Dr. Noc: right. It’s sort of ballooned over the past few years. It is interesting. Like you were saying, Kristen, there’s no room for nuance in short form video content. Um, like, your video’s gonna flop if you even add 10 seconds of justification for something you’re saying.

And so you can spend 9 out of 10 videos talking about the value of nutrition and fruits and vegetables and exercise and good sleep and stress management. [00:17:00] Then you make the 10th video talking about how like, oh yeah, this vaccine is safe and effective and the benefits outweigh the risks. And on that 10th video, your comments are going to be like, ah, you big pharma, go tell them to do, you know, all the things you tell them to do in the other nine videos.

But none of that really connects because each video you see is so isolated. It used to be, you know, you would see a lot of videos mostly curated within the group of people that you follow, but now every platform obviously is totally algorithmic. It’s the for you page style of content. where every video is sort of in isolation and often totally unrelated to the one you might see next.

Kristin: Yeah. Yeah. I hadn’t thought about it in that way about, um, you know, separating it out of its context when it’s algorithm based, but that is a big problem. 

Will: Yeah. And, and you, I mean, you started making your content, I mean, like many of us, you know, around the pandemic, right? That’s when you got onto TikTok.

And, um, It’s the, the idea of, of, [00:18:00] of using TikTok as a way that’s educational, as opposed to entertaining and trying to find that mix. Uh, you know, I find that’s one of the more difficult things for science communicators. Um, and can you speak to that a little bit and, and how you developed your style and kind of the trial and error that you did as a, someone who’s trying to be educational.

Uh, and the challenges that you’ve faced doing that. 

Dr. Noc: Yeah, that’s a great question. That is the classic tension is because in your scientific training, you get trained how to stand up there and do a 30 minute or 60 minute seminar for a group of scientists who are stuck sitting in the chair anyway, are going to keep listening to you regardless of how entertaining you are.

Will: You don’t get standup training in your PhD program. Was there a comedy class? I don’t know. 

Dr. Noc: No, you know, you get points. You don’t get points for being funny. You get points for asking. Like, harsh and rude questions. So it doesn’t prepare you very well for social media, which is the exact opposite, where people come to TikTok whatever, to [00:19:00] be entertained.

They’re not often coming for the purpose of seeking out information on immunology or what have you. And so, You know, we’re kind of shooed into the entertainment role. Um, you can talk about, if there’s a topic that people are super worried about, like back at the time, COVID, you can do a boring educational video and people will watch it just because of the intrinsic value.

Um, but if you’re trying to talk about heart disease or something and it’s relative, relatively not like as interesting Uh, you have to fuse it with some other type of entertainment. You have to be, you know, dancing or doing camera movements or doing it with a trend or something just to try to hold people’s interest long enough to communicate what you’re trying to.

How’s 

Will: your, how’s your, how are your dance moves these days? 

Dr. Noc: They are not great, but I think embracing that is That can be 

Kristin: entertaining too! Yeah, yeah. I mean 

Dr. Noc: As part of the shtick, I’ve started doing some videos. I start the video by saying like, P. O. B. we’re dancing at a party. And then I just like, say stuff while doing dance moves, kind of [00:20:00] like this.

There’s no music or anything, but just the fact that you’re doing this actually keeps people watching a lot longer than if you were doing nothing at all. Yes, and if you’re only 

Kristin: listening and not watching, just imagine the whitest white boy dance you can think of, and that’s what’s happening here. 

Dr. Noc: Yep, call this one the East Coast Icebreaker.

Will: Hey, I think he looks fantastic. I just, uh, you got the moves, man. He’s 

Kristin: got moves about like yours. Yeah, we’re very similar. Except you’ve got some hip action. You can get the hips 

Will: going. Oh, thank you. See, you hear that? I can get the hips going. See, it’s not just jokes. I’ve got, I should, maybe I should dance more in my content.

I don’t know. Yeah, 

Kristin: leave the arms and legs out of it though. 

Dr. Noc: You should honestly try it. Um, I tried it sort of on a whim one time, and then literally like tenfold more views on that particular video. Same type of information as I would usually present, just sitting there talking to the camera. A little bit of dancing can work some magic.

Will: Yeah, have you cracked the code yet on what’s, uh, what’s going to hit and what’s [00:21:00] not on, on TikTok? Because I’m still befuddled. No, no, 

Dr. Noc: no, it’s always, you know, Like I saw 

Will: a couple of videos of yours that, and you weren’t dancing, you were just giving like very Succinct explanations of, of things like ibuprofen and like how it works.

I 

Kristin: love that. 

Will: I don’t remember if that was the one that we weren’t dancing. I don’t know if you were dancing in that one, but, um, uh, in a dancing quotation marks, it’s a very loosely described as dancing, I would say. Uh, but, but there, there are some of your videos where it’s, it’s just, you’re just one minute like giving.

Really succinct, accurate information. And even those are hitting though, like some of, you know, you get like 800, 000 views on something like that. You’re like, what is the trick here? What is the, and I, I mean, I 

Kristin: think is what, it made me laugh so hard and it’s, yes, it’s informative, but it was in the way you delivered it because it was like, Oh, you’ll know better than I would, but you know, like.

Like, there were no [00:22:00] complete, grammatically correct sentences, right? A lot of It reminded me of how I have to talk to you. Like, take out any extra filler words, like, A, the, whatever. And just leave what’s, you know, has the most value left. It’s like, how does ibuprofen know where hurt? Ibuprofen know nowhere hurt.

Yeah, 

Dr. Noc: it reminded me of an orthopedic surgeon. It’s part of the, like, entertainment thing. It’s like, Trying to force a way to deliver it and like takes people by surprise and like, what is he talking about? Why is he talking like that? Oh, wait, this is actually interesting information. You have to make it through the first two seconds.

Will: Absolutely. The surprise factor is a big part of it. And that’s a big part of comedy in general. It’s just, it’s just, you’re, you say something that people weren’t expecting and in a way that they’re not expecting and that’s what generates a laugh. And so. Right. And you do a great job 

Dr. Noc: with this. I mean, I think the brilliance of the skit format is people know instantly when they see a skit, they’re like, Oh, this is going to be good, right?

This is, I’m expecting this to be well thought out. Um, [00:23:00] and I know there’s going to be a punchline at some point. And once they’ve seen one of your skits, they know what to expect from there on in the rest of the skits. So it’s really brilliant in that, like, you set it up within half a second, they know what to expect.

Will: Right, yeah, and setting expectations is like a huge part of it, um, and then also just tricking people into learning things, you know. Like, that’s, that’s, that’s it. If you want to That’s 

Kristin: what making in 

Will: Entertainment. Content. 

Kristin: Yes, that’s what making information entertaining does, is it sort of tricks people into learning, but in a, in a benevolent way.

You know, 

Will: for their own 

Kristin: good. 

Will: Have you ever felt like quitting social media at times? Have there, like, what, obviously, because you’ve posted a lot of content about vaccines and, you know, COVID, you’ve done, you know, you’ve done research on, on COVID and everything. So, but I imagine there have been some dark moments.

with your social media presence. I know I’ve had those. Yeah. I 

Kristin: mean, everybody’s got their horror stories. 

Dr. Noc: Certainly during the height of COVID, while making a lot of content about [00:24:00] COVID and COVID vaccines, as you would imagine the type of comments and DMs and emails you get for making what you know, you’re trying to make as neutral and evidence based as possible.

That’s not as much fun as making fun content about ibuprofen or about You know, insulin prices or stuff. So I’ve never actually thought about quitting, but certainly I have slowed my pace, uh, and I’ve felt less enthusiasm for making content at times. 

Will: Yeah, I’ve felt that. 

Kristin: Yeah. I mean, it’s no fun when you’re trying to entertain or inform or do something good for people.

And then the response that you get is basically a whole bunch of people slapping you in the face. Like who, who would want to continue doing that? 

Will: Well, it’s, I always remind myself, like, like, sir. Like this is free con like I am, I am just, I am delivering my brain thoughts like directly into your phone at no cost to you.

And this is, this is what you’re, you’re saying about me. I mean, disagreeing is one thing, right? Like pushing [00:25:00] back on something, but that’s just, that’s not how it’s done on social media, 

[music]: right? 

Will: It’s, it ends up being like, you know, a lot of personal attacks and that, that’s, it always sucks to, you know, you can get used to it.

To seeing that and dealing with that, but it never feels good. 

Dr. Noc: Right. It wears you down over time. And I don’t know, I mean, how long does it take you to ideate and film and edit a video? 

Will: Yeah. I mean, I’ve gotten faster at it. It’s, it depends on the subject. I tried to one, I think the longest I’ve ever spent on a video is when I did one about pharmacy benefit managers.

Actually, I had to do research because I didn’t learn like what they were. And that was like. You know, it took a couple of days to write the script alone and then filming it, but you know, I can, it’s, it takes time is the point, 

Dr. Noc: right? Yeah. And you end up with a one minute video and then if you get a lot of hateful comments on that video or the video flops or something that can feel like, Oh, why did I invest dozens of hours into doing this the best I could?

And then no one liked it. What is one 

Will: of the more memorable? [00:26:00] DMs or emails that you’ve received? 

Dr. Noc: Oh, I have a clear answer for this actually. Um, in fact, there’s only one that I really remember, which makes this easy. It was, I don’t do many live streams anymore, but I used to sort of back in the height of COVID and I had just finished doing a live stream.

Um, talking about this was right after the COVID vaccines had rolled out. So I was describing the recent evidence on the efficacy and the safety and, you know, how they were being produced, which is what I typically did at the time. Um, and it was right after that live stream ended, um, right, my wife was about to get home from the hospital.

So at the end I said like, sorry, I’ve got to go, I’ve got to go cook dinner or something. My wife’s about to get home. And then like 30 minutes after that, maybe someone sent me a message and they were like, you know, I didn’t, I wasn’t really sure whether to believe you, um, until you said you were going to go cook your wife dinner, basically.

Like I realized you were just a person and you’re doing your best. Like everyone else is 

Kristin: doing. 

Dr. Noc: The point [00:27:00] was, um, and actually this is lesson that stuck with me to this day on social media is people are looking for human connection. They’re looking to build relationships with people. who they can then trust.

It doesn’t matter if you show, you know, research articles on the screen or you cite the CDC or the FDA or something. Um, I think what’s really helpful is building what feels like a real relationship with people. And so doing funny dances or talking about food you cook or dumb jokes or stuff. I think all of that belongs, even if you’re a professional.

You know, a professional in the work world. All of that should be present as part of your social media channel. You shouldn’t try to keep it totally sterile, because I think those are critical parts of building the authenticity to show people. You know, you’re just a regular person. You’re doing the best you can.

This is your honest interpretation of the evidence, which at that time was about the COVID vaccines. And so I wouldn’t have thought, like, in a scientist’s mindset, that shouldn’t be what convinces someone to get a COVID vaccine. It’s not that I’m going to cook dinner for my wife. It’s all the evidence I was just talking about.[00:28:00] 

But in reality, it may be exactly the opposite. 

Kristin: Yeah, well, both, right? But like, people So many thoughts about all this. First of all, this gets to what we always try to do, right? Which is highlight that before anyone is a physician, a nurse, a researcher, whatever, we are all just human. And sometimes we forget that when we’re talking about the in which we practice professionally, right?

Because we are so trained in the professional sphere into these tiny little boxes of how you have to talk about things. And, you know, in the research world, you have to be so super specific and, uh, you know, just, and it’s always the exact opposite. Of what you need to do when you’re speaking just as a human to another human, you know?

Nobody wants to hear somebody that sounds like a robot trying to, to convince them to go do something that they are afraid of. They want to know that it’s the hu right? So the way that we make that connection is Decisions as people, we like to think of ourselves as rational [00:29:00] thinkers, but decision making actually happens emotionally first, and then we rationalize to ourselves in order to justify the decision that we’re making.

And all of this is happening in like milliseconds and we’re not like aware of it, but that’s how people work. So if you’re trying to only communicate to them, 

Will: you can watch 

Kristin: it in real time, you can see it unfold. 

Will: I believe that. Boop. Boop. Boop. It’s right. 

Kristin: Yeah. But you know, if you’re trying to just like only rationalize with people, only present to them the evidence and the logic and the why, why aren’t you doing this?

It makes so much sense. That’s a good clue that it’s actually an emotional thing that’s happening. And you need to get to what is the emotion under there that is preventing them from wanting to use that logic in the way that it makes sense to you. And I think that’s exactly why, you know, People are looking for authenticity and human connection, like you’re saying, and why the fact that, you know, you’re just a [00:30:00] person who’s a nice guy gonna go cook his wife dinner after her work day.

It wasn’t just that it was the evidence you presented, but, but that piece was what allowed that person to, that is what dealt with the emotional, you know, fear or uncertainty or whatever it is that they had that allowed them then to hear what the evidence was, was saying. And I think that is what a lot of professionals, you know, scientists, physicians, what have you, Get wrong about science communication is they think that you can just hit people over the head and no, you have to address this human emotional side first.

Will: Yeah. Off my 

Kristin: soapbox. I’m done. 

Dr. Noc: No, I think you’re totally right. Yeah. 

Will: I think that maybe that’s what, maybe we should all be doing more content while going about our daily lives. Like make a video while you’re brushing your teeth. Morgan, like, uh, you know, I don’t know, have a bubble bath and talk about some kind of kidney disease.

Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. Just, [00:31:00] I’m just throwing this, these are free ideas to whoever’s listening. Maybe that’s why get ready for me, get ready with me videos are so popular. Yeah, because it’s like something 

Kristin: that everybody does. It’s relatable. It’s, yeah. Yeah. And it just feels, it’s like parallel play, right?

Like we have that as adults too, of just, uh, you know, you want to feel like there’s someone in the room keeping you company and you’re chatting. 

Will: Also Morgan, can you stop showing off that you’re, you can like cook and stuff? I didn’t say it was a tasting yet. 

[music]: It was warm. All right, 

Will: let’s take a short break.

We’ll be right back.

Alright, we are back with Dr. Nock, Morgan McSweeney, PhD, great name by the way. 

Kristin: It really is. It’s 

Will: fantastic. It’s 

Kristin: like a character. Are 

Will: there a lot of McSweeneys out there? Not too many. Alright, well, here’s a question for you. Um, that actually you posed to me, uh, or you sent to us, I should say, but I, I’m really interested in knowing the answer.

Why do you always have to put on proper [00:32:00] PPE in the lab, even if you think you don’t need it? 

[music]: No, 

Dr. Noc: it’s the same reason why I always lock my door when I leave, uh, my, even if I’m just going for two seconds out and I’m going to be right back in. I always lock it. 

Kristin: I’m one of these people. The reason 

Will: why. Cause I wouldn’t do that.

Dr. Noc: Yeah, it’s to build. It’s so it’s totally rote habit. So that when you do actually need it, uh, or you’ve, you know, forget to check the oven or something when you leave, it’s just automatic. So in the lab, what that looks like is you may be sitting there. I’m just moving around what is basically water with a harmless chemical in it.

Surely I don’t need a splash guard or to wear closed toe shoes. Uh, and you don’t in that moment, but what may happen as happened to one of my former coworkers is one day you may be working with. a herpes virus in the biosafety containment thing. Uh, and you may be wearing sandals instead of closed toed shoes and you may spill herpes virus all over your, uh, toes.

Um, this is a true story. And so the reason why it’s, [00:33:00] you don’t need PPE a lot of the time when you’re thinking to yourself, do I really need to be wearing this right now? But what you a hundred percent need Is the rote habit of wearing PPE so that when you do need it, you’re wearing it. 

Will: That’s a good lesson and exactly why I wear safety glasses everywhere I go.

Driving, car, brushing my teeth. 

Kristin: Drinking your coffee. 

Will: You never know. What happened, what does a herpes foot look like? 

Kristin: Herpes foot? I don’t 

Dr. Noc: think 

Will: anything. I think you have a cut or an abrasion 

Dr. Noc: then. 

Will: Then 

Dr. Noc: it’s a problem. 

Kristin: Yeah. Well, and on something like a foot, you may not realize you do too. So, I don’t know. I hope it turned out okay for the person.

Dr. Noc: I think, I think it did. Um, but it was a good example thereafter for all the high school students that would come in to do internships in the lab, uh, to say, yes, you, you really do need to wear your goggles. 

Will: Well, I was about to say, that’s, that’s a thing you learn. I feel like I learned that in high school, like, you know, no open toed shoes.

Kristin: Yeah, you do. You learn that in like chemistry class or Yeah, 

Will: [00:34:00] so anyway, 

Kristin: but I think a lot of people think it’s over the top unnecessary until 

Will: you get herpes foot. Exactly All right. So we’re This is what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna play a game called oral defense Oh boy. 

Kristin: Does that strike terror immediately?

Just bring back all the PTSD. 

Will: We’re defending, we are defending orally the masses against misinformation. All right. That’s, that’s what a lot of us do who know a lot about a particular thing. And so I’m going to bring up seven. These are quick fires, seven things. And we’re going to protect the masses against misinformation.

Okay. I’m glad to 

Dr. Noc: be honest. First, I thought you were going to ask me questions about dentistry when you were talking. You’re 

Will: you’re white. You said your wife’s a physician. What is what specialty? She’s a fellow in pediatric endocrinology. 

Kristin: Okay, so also not dentistry. 

Will: So that’s, uh, roughly like 37 years of training.

Is that, that’s about [00:35:00] right for that? Almost there, hopefully. 

Dr. Noc: I would have to add it all up, but yeah, we’re over 

Will: 10 by now. Something like that. Okay. All right. We’re going to defend the masses against misinformation here. Number one, if you have a scrape, you should let it air out. Incorrect. No, it should be moist and clean, but covered.

Kristin: Why do we think it should air out? 

Will: Where does that come from? 

Dr. Noc: So, uh, people used to think, Oh, bacteria thrive in moist environments. Therefore, we should let it air out. We’ll get a nice little scab. It’ll eventually heal. Um, it will eventually heal. But the scab actually is your body’s way of creating a moist and clean and covered environment.

[music]: And 

Dr. Noc: it turns out bacteria do grow in moist environments, but you know what else works really well in moist environments? Your immune cells. Um, and so this has been exhaustively studied at this point, and there’s not an increased risk of infection, um, from having a clean and moistly covered abrasion compared to a dry one.

Kristin: Okay, so the key is just [00:36:00] make sure it’s clean. 

Will: Yeah, 

Kristin: that will keep the bacteria out rather than the dryness. 

Will: Counterpoint, sometimes it kind of hurts to put like a band aid on a scratch and you just want to like not have anything touch it. But, but I mean, scientifically speaking, I get it. 

Dr. Noc: Yeah. And the big one is, so if you’re putting something like Vaseline or Aquaphor or something, it doesn’t actually have to be medicated.

A lot of people will use Neosporin with antibiotics in it. Yeah. Um, it doesn’t have to be, it’s not safe from an infection standpoint. Can cause hypersensitivities in some people. Um, obviously if your doctor recommends using a medicated one, right, because you already have an infection or something, then go for it.

Will: I’ve definitely heard from, from dermatologists, like people 

Kristin: don’t like neosporin 

Will: anymore, the triple, the triple antibiotic ointments that you get over the counter, like they’re. They’re not helpful. 

Kristin: There goes our Neosporin sponsorship. It’s okay. 

Will: It’s all right. That’s Big Pharma, right? We don’t need that.

We don’t want that. No. Neosporin. Big [00:37:00] Neosporin. Is Neosporin Big Pharma? I don’t know. I don’t know who makes Neosporin. Probably is. No, like, there’s like, what, like three Big Pharma? How many, how many Big Pharma’s are there? Morgan. Oh, you know, I don’t know the answer to that. I’m gonna guess six. Are there less than ten?

Yeah, there’s like, you know, a handful. I don’t know, we could probably name them all. I have no idea. All right, number two. Defending the masses against misinformation. Ibuprofen knows where to go. 

Dr. Noc: Incorrect. Ibuprofen goes through your entire body and you only notice it. Where there was pain. That’s right.

You know the enzyme that it blocks? This is, this is another good part of talking about this. 

Will: This is like step one, uh, uh, COX 2? That’s right. COX 1? COX 2? COX 2? Wow. I was 

Dr. Noc: in there. Buried. I brought it out. Well, the one that’s important for the pain is the COX 2, but it’s not very selective. But when you’re talking about ibuprofen and you say it blocks COX, it’s a COX blocker.

There you go. You got a good performing video. 

Will: That’s a million views right there. That’s good. See, [00:38:00] I can occasionally like bring the things that are outside the eyeball, like get a broom and 

Kristin: sweep out back there. 

Will: You know, sometimes, sometimes I still got it. I still got it. Ask me anything about the photoreceptors.

I I’m, I’m your man, but, um, you know, again, below the nasal bridge, it’s a struggle for me. Okay. So number three, recycling plastic will save the world. It was a good one. 

Dr. Noc: Ooh, I don’t, I don’t think so, unfortunately. My impression is that the, the fraction of plastic that you recycle, that gets recycled in the way you think it gets recycled, is a small fraction.

It doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing. Um, but unfortunately, I think due to economic misalignments, um, it’s often cheaper to use new plastic and discard a lot of the plastic we think is getting recycled may not actually truly be getting recycled. Really? 

Kristin: So, okay, but I want to, I want to break down the nuance here.

So we’re not saying, okay, so in theory though, like in a hypothetical, 100 percent of the [00:39:00] plastic that we produce, we end up recycling. Would that save the world? And the issue is just that’s not what’s happening? 

Will: Is that what you’re saying? 

Kristin: Or is it that even if we recycled 100 percent of plastic, doesn’t do much good?

Dr. Noc: Yeah, well, you know, this is a good example. I don’t have that much expertise here. Yeah. My tangential scientific hunch is that it would certainly help. It’s hard to get there because some types of plastics are either too thin or too dirty to effectively recycle, or it would be very expensive to do so. Um, I think a big part of it is economic.

Like you could theoretically efficiently recycle this entire bottle, but if it’s cheaper to not do so with all the shipping and everything back and forth, then maybe people don’t. There are some things that do get really effectively recycled. Aluminum is one of them. I think there’s a few more examples.

Not an expert there. 

Will: I have, I have no more blind trust. I, I [00:40:00] think the thing I, I, I trust the most in life without even thinking about it. Is the sanitation company that takes our, our, our recycling bin away. And like, I, I feel like I’m doing a great thing. I’m recycling and just like, Oh, well, I assume everything is happening the way it’s supposed to down the line.

But yo, you’re absolutely right. Like that’s one of those things you don’t even. Think about it, like, I’m sure there are limitations to what they can do, but I don’t know. But what I don’t want people 

Kristin: to walk away from is like, well, I heard that. Don’t recycle. You 

Will: should definitely recycle. No, still recycle.

But the point is, it We 

Kristin: could have a better system. We may not be 

Will: recycling as efficiently. as we think we are. 

Dr. Noc: Now, the dark side of this is that, you know, who is a very big proponent of pro recycling messaging is companies that produce plastic, actually. Because if you were fully aware of the percent of plastic that does effectively [00:41:00] get recycled, you might be less inclined to purchase new single use plastic items in the future.

Kristin: Oh, so you might reuse things instead of just tossing them in the recycle and then buy a new one. 

Dr. Noc: Right. Or, you know, you might be okay with paying a little bit more for other materials. And so there have actually been some pretty big PR campaigns from these, you know, plastic type of companies that are very like pro recycling campaigns because they want people to feel like it’s okay if I use a lot of plastics, I’ll just recycle it.

Will: That’s so nefarious. 

Kristin: What can you believe anymore?

Will: Oh man, I can’t believe anything anybody says. All right, here we go. Uh, GMOs are inherently bad for you. No, 

Dr. Noc: definitely not the case for you in terms of your health. I have no concern eating GMO corn or whatever other products. Neither do I. I love it. Now there is something to be said for the, the environmental impact of GMOs.

And so this is the part that I don’t know as much about. On the health side, I’m not concerned. On [00:42:00] the environment side, you get these big monocultures of crops that are dependent on these specific pesticides that leak off into neighboring, you know, plots or watersheds. The environmental impact of all of that, I have no idea about.

I suspect is probably negative. But in terms of my health. I’m not looking for the GMO label on foods one way or the other. In fact, they can be helpful. Like there’s the special, you may know this better than me. There’s a special type of rice that they’ve engineered to have vitamin. Maybe it’s vitamin A.

I don’t know what it is, but you know, you can do some really neat things with engineering. 

Kristin: Right. What is it that people are afraid of here? Let’s break that down. Like they think because it’s got like, like it’s some kind of mutant DNA and it’s going to mess up your DNA. Like, where, where do we go wrong here?

Will: Yeah. Turn it into 

Dr. Noc: a carrot. I don’t know. There’s the eyesight connection. 

Kristin: Yeah. That’s 

Dr. Noc: right. Which vitamin is that? Is that vitamin A? 

Will: It’s vitamin A. Well, I mean, there’s lots of vitamins in carrots, vitamin A, vitamin C, but yeah, vitamin A is the one. That’s why I’m just housing a [00:43:00] fistful of carrots every day.

Dr. Noc: Oh, this is your turn for the misinformation. The 

Will: misinformation there is that You can get vitamin A from so many things and carrots being one of them, but you like, you don’t have to force your kids to eat carrots because they’ll get vitamin A from other places. It’s, it’s just, I mean, the, the carotene, there’s, there’s lots of vegetables that have that, so it’s, it’s, uh, you know, it doesn’t take much.

Wasn’t the origin 

Dr. Noc: of the carrot story something in World War II? 

Will: Oh God, I don’t even, that now, I don’t even know. That’s something I should look up though. 

[music]: Yeah. 

Will: Yeah. I 

Dr. Noc: think it was, don’t quote me on this, I think it was in the UK, they had just developed some type of radar to detect enemy planes at night, and they didn’t want, uh, other people to know they had this radar, so they said, we’re giving our pilots lots of carrots.

Yeah. That’s how they shot your plane down. It’s not because we have the secret technology. 

Will: We’re just 

Kristin: making their eyesight better. 

Will: The thing is, it’s like, you know, it’s just like normal diet that you’ll get all the [00:44:00] vitamins that you need. That’s the thing. And, and you know, the too much of vitamin A can cause problems, too little can cause problems.

It’s like any vitamin, you know, it’s, it’s. There’s another big 

Dr. Noc: industry, big, 

Will: big, big vitamin, big supplement. Oh man, that’s everywhere. Supplementation, all that. That’s a huge area of misinformation. Yeah. It’s like, just, just. Just eat a variety of things, right? Like, yeah, the supplements, you’re just gonna pee them out.

That’s just like very expensive urine. That’s what you’re buying. Yeah. All right. 

Kristin: Well, but it’s not so black and white, again, because some people are actually deficient in something, and for them, they might need to supplement that thing. Together with their doctor. Sure. Yeah, 

Will: absolutely. Like it’s the vitamin supplementation exists for a reason and a medical field, like 

Kristin: most things that has gone rampant because there is profit to be made, like 

Will: if you’re bleeding, 

Kristin: people believe that they need it.

Will: If you’re [00:45:00] bleeding out of your orifices and your gums are bloody, maybe you need to eat an orange because you might have like this, that’s a thing, but I would not trust anybody. Selling you vitamins on social media. Right. No way. I can tell 

Kristin: you why you need it. 

Will: I can, I can, I feel a hundred percent confident.

I can make that blanket statement. That is a scam, 100%. 

Dr. Noc: Do you know the range for affiliate kickbacks from supplement companies? Oh, I don’t. Oh, it must 

Kristin: be high. 

Dr. Noc: I’ve seen as high as 50%. 

Kristin: Wow. 

Dr. Noc: So when you see an influencer selling you a 50 monthly supply of the vitamin, half, fully half of that, potentially, is straight to the influencer.

The other half is to the vitamin company who themselves are making whatever ex profit. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. That doesn’t say anything about the value of supplements. Evidence does say something about the value of supplements, which then Most people don’t need them. Certainly some people can benefit, but in a lot of cases when you’re taking, you know, [00:46:00] this herb and that herb and this herb all together because you saw it on social media, probably you don’t need to.

[music]: No, 

Dr. Noc: it may be helpful as a placebo. And this is a totally different, like, if you take this placebo, and you think it helps you sleep better, and then you do fall asleep instantly and sleep for eight hours or something, and it’s not causing you harm, 

Will: Yeah, I think, uh, I, I see some placebos in my field with blue light blocking glasses.

Kristin: I 

Will: think people, there’s a lot of claims about, um, blue light glasses and they’re just having blue light blocking technology in your glasses does not. It’s not harmful to you. And I do, I think some patients do get, but there’s no data that shows that it helps with eyestrain with it. But I do feel like there’s some placebo with stuff like that.

You know, it’s like, you know, here’s, here’s what I know about the data, about what we know as a scientific community. Sorry, I’m not supposed to use the word scientific as a [00:47:00] researching community. Here’s what I know about blue light blocking technology. You know, if you use it, it’s not going to hurt you, but it’s not going to do the thing they’re claiming to do.

That’s kind of how I approach it with patients. So, yeah. All right. Here’s one. Aspartame causes cancer. 

Kristin: I heard this a lot growing up. 

Dr. Noc: No, I don’t, I don’t think so. Um, 

Will: yeah, I don’t think we have that, that kind of, uh, evidence. 

Kristin: What was it that led to that? Like people don’t think these things for no reason.

So what was it that. 

Will: Wasn’t it like this scare about artificial sweeteners and drinks and stuff, like Diet Coke and, and things? I’m not sure when it started, but 

Dr. Noc: I don’t know the origin either. Um, nor, I, I have looked at, you know, some of the meta analyses on, you know, the health effects of aspartame, but not recently.

And so, cautious to talk about it. But like, but like from the 

Kristin: science Well, I guess you’re talking about the science. I’m just curious, like, there must have been some research probably got put in the media because that’s [00:48:00] usually where these things go wrong. 

[music]: Sure. 

Kristin: Is how the media presents the research, uh, that, that suggested some correlation between aspartame and cancer, maybe like in mice or something.

Like, I’m just curious where, where it all starts that then it, that goes off the rails. I do 

Will: feel fairly confident in saying like diet Coke’s not, there’s no, uh, direct link to diet Coke and cancer. I don’t know. It’s one of those things that 

Kristin: would be The ophthalmologist is 

Dr. Noc: confident saying that. Yeah. For things that are consumed so broadly as that, it would be so easy to find even a small effect size.

Right. That gives me some confidence there. But what you’re saying about the media and the mice I mean, this is like red wine, like people think red wine is helpful because there may be some mechanistic studies that show, oh, the resveratrol, this antioxidant compound in red wine, because it comes from the grapes, is protective if you add a huge dose of it in cell culture to these cells.

But when you combine it with all the other stuff in alcohol, I mean, alcohol itself is [00:49:00] It’s not an antioxidant. It’s like, it’s an oxidant. And so the sum of all those things means that actually the red wine is not as helpful as you would have thought it was. In fact, it can be Yeah, maybe 

Kristin: just eat some grapes.

Dr. Noc: Maybe eat some grapes. But there is evidence that if you take out that ingredient from red wine It is a potent, uh, antioxidant and it has all these benefits, but that’s not true when you look at the study of what happens when people, you know, actually drink it. 

Kristin: Right. Yeah, it’s, it’s taking it from the bench science to the translational side, like you’re talking about that the media is not very good at that, but they do it a lot.

Will: Yeah. And then you end up with an article like, you know, it’s studies have shown, studies have shown. Three cups of coffee a day will keep you from getting prostate cancer. It was like the four is lethal for the LD 50 of caffeine is, is 18 pots of coffee a day. All right. Last one here. Vaccines cause you to [00:50:00] become magnetized.

Kristin: I just, what? 

Will: That’s a thing people talk about. 

Dr. Noc: Yeah, they, they, there was a brief, but there’s a fervor about this. It was a very passionate discussion around vaccine magnetization for a while. I mean, first of all, they don’t, but people were taking magnets. and sticking them to their arm where they got vaccinated and they would stick.

Um, which can be very convincing. Um, if you are entering this, this self experiment thinking maybe this is true and then you try it and it works, then you’re like, oh, it didn’t work on my other arm, but it did work on this arm for whatever reason. And that other reason may be that the arm was a little moist or whatever may have happened.

I actually made a mistake making content about this back when this was happening a lot. I made, I kind of like made fun of the fact, because to me at the time it seemed like ridiculous that you would think that vaccines could cause you to become magnetic. And so I was like making fun of the fact that maybe that would be the case.

And I learned a lot of people were [00:51:00] genuinely afraid that that was happening. It was like a real fear that people were having and it came across as like insensitive. Um, so that actually has colored. The content I’ve made since then, which is no matter how obvious something may seem to you, and you may have a lot of training in something, so it may not be obvious to everyone else, um, you have to approach it from like a inclusive and sensitive standpoint, because you never know.

If someone is truly Terrified that they might have been magnetized. They don’t want to see a video making fun of the fact that, you know, magnets could stick to you because of vaccines. 

Kristin: Right. It gets back to what I was saying before. You have to address the emotion first, and then you can present the facts.

Will: Oh, that’s true. I got a question, though. It’s a good point, though. Kind 

Kristin: of a little thought experiment. I think it’d be kind of cool to be magnetized. Would it be bad? 

Will: Is it a bad thing to be magnetized? What if we were all 

Kristin: magneto? It could 

Will: be deadly to get an MRI. I’ve just been saying, like Okay, so I’ll stay away from 

Kristin: MRIs.

I’ll stay away from MRIs. But aside from that, [00:52:00] like, I could have a lot of like reminders on myself might help. The earth 

Will: itself has a magnetic field. Well true. It’d be kind of a, I think it’d be a significant, significant challenge in your life to be magnetic. Well, 

Kristin: but does it depend? How magnetized are you?

Will: Do we have? One 

Kristin: vaccine or ten? 

Will: Do we individually all have our own magnetic field? I don’t know. Probably. Now we’re getting into Maybe we could orient ourselves like pigeons. 

Dr. Noc: Don’t they use the Earth’s 

Kristin: Oh! 

Dr. Noc: That’s true. You don’t need Google Maps anymore. 

Kristin: Yeah, and you know, I’m much better at navigating around the world than you are, so am I more magnetized, do you think?

Will: We are very close to contributing to misinformation on this podcast, um, I believe. 

Kristin: I said it’s a thought experiment. I did not say it was real. And then what if you had like, like, what if this feeling of like, I don’t know, I just click with the person is like my magnetic field and your magnetic field are compatible in some way.

I’m just saying, maybe it wouldn’t be such a [00:53:00] bad thing to be magnetized, but you did make some compelling points about being stuck to the ground. So, 

Will: yeah, I don’t want to do that. But Morgan, I do want to say like that it’s really such a good point. I just want to reiterate that what you said about, about addressing these concerns that people have, because in the end.

Like, I think a lot of people’s frustration about misinformation, it’s, it’s obviously, it’s the sources of the misinformation that we’re so angry with and we’re frustrated with that we have to hear these people who are talking about things they shouldn’t be talking about under the pretense of misinformation.

Of expertise and, and those that’s the, where the frustration gets and on our, our, our, I don’t want to say resentment’s a strong word, but, but our, um, our, our debunking, uh, efforts need to be directed toward them and, and not toward maybe the susceptible [00:54:00] people who don’t have a medical background or a scientific background who are, um, more prone to believe something because someone says it.

Very confidently, right? Well, 

Kristin: and that’s, it’s, you know, that trend that it’s a little bit old now, but the red flags, green flags, all of that, that’s going around. I feel like there needs to be that for like scientific literacy, right? Like here’s a red flag. If someone is making money off of selling you a thing, maybe double check.

With other sources whether that is accurate what they’re saying 

Will: Well, I don’t 

Kristin: want to just vilify courses or vilify people being entrepreneurial But like if they are if they are generating fear that something is wrong with you and then selling you something that they say We’ll fix that thing. That’s a red flag.

That’s like a Go check that out with someone who’s not selling you that stuff, but would have the expertise to know versus a green flag. Like, how do you know what the red flags and green flags are? I think, you know, there’s some good content that, that people like you, [00:55:00] Morgan, might be able to create around, you know, how do we teach people?

What is good information and what’s, what’s bad information. 

Will: I like the flag system. 

Kristin: Yeah. 

Will: Yeah. Morgan, you got to run with that. Yes. No, I think this is a great idea. Get the flag system going. We got, you have different colors too. 

Kristin: Yeah. 

Will: Right. Like yellow flag, like 

Kristin: white flag, just walk away. 

Will: Yellow flag. This they’re dabbling in a little bit of 

Kristin: a little bit outside 

Will: your, it’s like, if I start talking about like the best type of, of joint surgery to get, you know, it’s phrasing it as a question.

I’m just saying maybe we can do knee transplants with chimpanzees. I don’t know. I’m just, I’m just throwing it out there. Just asking questions. I think 

Kristin: the operative phrase there was I don’t know. 

Will: Okay, that’s true. Absolutely. But yeah, somebody 

Kristin: who sounds like they know what they’re talking about and you think they might because they are a doctor Uh, that could be like a [00:56:00] yellow flag, right?

It’s like what you’re saying. Yes. He’s a doctor, but he’s an ophthalmologist So he doesn’t know anything about monkeys or knees 

Will: What’s the next couple of videos you’re going to do? What’s floating around in your brain before we go? 

Dr. Noc: Oh, you know, I don’t know what your system is for planning video ideas. I, in my notes app, I’ve just got a running list of video ideas.

Will: Oh yeah, oh yeah, I do too. 

Dr. Noc: Okay, I’ve got one. I don’t know if I can pull this one off, but it’s how much of the totality of human achievement to date is due to coffee? 

Kristin: I like it. If you can imagine 

Dr. Noc: some incremental productivity benefit due to coffee, you know, how much does that add up to over time if it’s sort of exponential?

I probably won’t make that, uh, because I don’t know how to answer it. But I think it’s a cool question. You could look 

Kristin: at different countries, coffee versus tea drinkers, which ones were more productive because they had more caffeine. 

Dr. Noc: That’s interesting. We’ve got, uh, okay. Is alcohol or caffeine a quote, stronger drug?

[music]: And the answer 

Dr. Noc: is caffeine. Um, because if you think of the [00:57:00] dose, like in grams versus milligrams of each drug, it’s actually a pretty huge difference. Um, some of these, you know, you write down in your sleep in the middle of the night and they don’t make any sense, 

[music]: right? Oh, 

Will: I have so many of those. I was just gonna tell you that, like, I’ve got one that just says Santa’s elves, oncology,

I don’t know, I don’t know what that means. I, I wrote that down in my notes app and it’s, it’s, it’s, I don’t know, I don’t know what that means, . I dunno what that means. More attractive with 

Dr. Noc: parasite. 

Will: More attractive with parasite. I don’t like that. Here’s one. Med school prof giving lecture to nobody. I don’t know.

I don’t know what that, what that video idea is. That just 

Kristin: sounds like, like it could possibly be the reality today. 

Will: Yeah, I think that’s it. I think that’s it. 

Dr. Noc: Uh, I felt the potential when you said it, not even knowing what you were gonna do with it. It sounds like a good idea. 

Will: And then another one I just wrote down, heart murmur.

Like 

Kristin: what, 

Will: what is [00:58:00] that? I don’t know. I’m so bad at doing this. I just, you know. All right. Well. 

Kristin: I’m, I’m intrigued by the parasite idea. I think you should keep trying to figure that one out. That’s good. 

Dr. Noc: That’s a, that’s a thing. There is a parasite where people who have it, it’s the one you get from cats.

It’s uh. 

[music]: Oh. 

Kristin: Oh 

Dr. Noc: gosh. Oh gosh. Oh gosh. What was that? The one you’re worried about if you’re pregnant. Toxoplasmosis. Toxoplasmosis, 

Will: yeah. 

Dr. Noc: People who are infected with toxoplasmosis. Are like, quantitatively, quantitatively rated as being a little bit more attractive than people who are not. And it’s associated with like, risk taking, uh, there’s like a whole host of things that people think may be due to this latent parasitic infection you’ve got for the rest of your life.

Kristin: Question. Does toxoplasmosis, is it able to spread sexually? 

Will: No, I, I don’t know. I mean, I think it’s gotta Like, is there some 

Kristin: evolutionary bent here? I think it’s gotta get in 

Will: your blood. I don’t know. 

Dr. Noc: I think it makes Like, so the cats get it. Rats or something get it [00:59:00] from cats. I’m, I’m gonna botch this probably.

But I think if the rats take more risks, then they’re more likely to go near cats or something, and then it 

Kristin: feeds 

Dr. Noc: into the cycle of 

Kristin: Yeah. But like, by the time it’s in a human, is that maybe, like, is the virus trying to take advantage of like a sexual reproduction system among humans to then spread itself to another human.

Dr. Noc: Maybe. I think, I think it may be we’re caught in the crossfire from rodents would be my guess. Like it makes the mice go seek out cat urine. Uh, and then we’re just, we’re just, humans are like, Hmm, that litter box is strangely seductive. 

Will: On that note, I think we should wrap up. Uh, no, thank you so much for joining us, Morgan.

Um, so where can people find you? Let us let people know where they can see your stuff here. 

Dr. Noc: So dr. noc, Dr. Nuck on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. 

Will: Awesome. Yeah. Check it out. Keep it up. I love the videos. Um, yeah, the ibuprofen one’s good. 

Kristin: Oh, it’s so good. One of [01:00:00] my like top internet videos ever. 

Will: Yeah. Do you just want to ride that one as long as you can?

Cause you could do so many like that, right? I don’t know how many. 

[music]: Yeah. 

Dr. Noc: It’s probably a good idea to go back and do so. 

Will: That’s what you do, you give one of the hits and then you can just do that same model different time. I mean, I’ve done that for so many of my videos and people like it. Yeah, you might 

Kristin: need a couple more models.

Am I 

Will: running out of ideas? Yeah, I’m through the Olympics. I gotta come out with some more stuff. All right. Well, thanks for that, uh, anyway, keep it up, uh, we’ll be following along and thanks again for coming on. 

Dr. Noc: Pleasure chatting. Thanks for having me.

Will: Hey, Kristen. 

Kristin: Yeah. 

Will: I think you’ve been neglecting our little friends here. 

Kristin: Oh, do they need some attention? 

Will: They do, from you in particular. 

Kristin: Oh, okay. Yeah, 

Will: they’re your favorite, the Demodex mites. 

Kristin: Love, love it. Love a good mite. 

Will: They’re so cute, but they can cause problems. 

Kristin: Yep. 

Will: Yeah. If you get like [01:01:00] red, itchy, irritated eyelids, it could be caused by these little guys 

Kristin: that would not seem very fun.

Demodex 

Will: blepharitis. They can’t help it. They’re just living their lives. 

Kristin: I guess so. But 

Will: it does. It’s not fun. No, not for the 

Kristin: human. 

Will: And they’re a lot smaller than this. 

Kristin: That’s good. They don’t look like this. 

Will: They’re not quite as cute, but almost. 

Kristin: Okay. 

Will: All right. But this is not something you should get freaked out by.

Kristin: Okay. 

Will: You got to get checked out. 

Kristin: Yes. 

Will: To learn more about how demodex blepharitis can affect you to find out more, you go to eyelidcheck. com. Okay. That’s E Y E L I D check. com to get more information about demodex blepharitis.

You want some more, um, video ideas that I can’t, I can’t figure out on my list here. All right. So I’ve got approval for a dead man. 

Kristin: Is [01:02:00] this like a prior authorization idea? I think so. Okay. 

Will: It’s like they get approval, but the patient’s already died. Yeah. Super dark, so I haven’t done that one yet. 

Kristin: Yeah. 

Will: Um.

It’s 

Kristin: a little depressing. Sadly, it’s probably true, which is why it’s depressing. I’ve 

Will: got, how to piss off a med student. That’s a pretty good one. 

Kristin: Yeah. 

Will: What else do I got here? That is 

Kristin: a good one. And you know what? That, I think you should do that one because they can’t do that themselves. They would get in trouble, you know, that would be really dicey.

So, but for someone like you to speak for them, I 

Will: kind of did that. I’ve done like the, the med student mafia, that’s kind of what that’s similar vein. Uh, one that’s just called hospital gift shop. 

Kristin: Okay. Well, 

Will: cause there’s a hospital that I, that, that is right next to where I work, my, my practice, right? 

[music]: Yeah.

Will: And I go in there sometimes to steal snacks from the lounge. 

[music]: Correct. 

Will: And I pass by and like every time I pass by there, I notice some other weird thing that they’re selling. 

Kristin: Yeah. 

Will: Like they have like a eight foot tall stuffed giraffe. 

Kristin: Yeah. [01:03:00] That’s probably for like the peed. 

Will: No, I get it. But like, it just, it’s this array of just the wildest things that you’ve seen that people can, in this, I don’t know.

Just 

Kristin: the, the assortment is what gets to you. 

Will: Just the variety, like how, I have so many questions, like how do they decide? Who’s purchasing these? Yeah, who’s choosing, like, what eight foot tall stuffed animals to get? 

[music]: I don’t 

Will: know. It’s just a whole thing. So anyway, I got, I got all kinds of, well, maybe we’ll do, we’ll have a segment on Glock Talk.

You could put 

Kristin: it to a vote. You could see if people want you to make these videos. I 

Will: thought about that once, like doing a, like a poll. Which of these videos do you want to see and have it be like the characters? I don’t know. We’ll see. Anyway. That was a fun episode. 

Kristin: Yeah, it was really fun. Misinformation 

Will: is always a fun topic to discuss.

Kristin: It is. And then the, you know, the pharmaceutical industry is obviously a very hot button topic. Um, so. 

Will: Not everyone is big pharma out there guys. 

Kristin: Right. 

Will: And you know, big pharma, it can suck. [01:04:00] There’s, there’s greed in every billion dollar industry. I don’t think you can have a billion dollar industry without being some greed there.

And that, 

Kristin: that is always the question, right? When it comes to healthcare, at least is, is it. Should it be a for profit system because then you have these kinds of things, but they’re all happening There are also 

Will: people within that corporation like right the little people that are just like working 

Kristin: right, 

Will: right?

Yeah, the other thing was like get swallowed up by the big groups and this is all this It’s a complicated thing and 

Kristin: it is and that’s one thing I’ve seen being along for the ride with your medical like I’ve I have met so many more doctors than I ever, uh, thought that I would, right? And I met them before they were doctors, and then I met them, you know, after they were doctors, and I’ve seen how their lives have unfolded since med school or whatever, and like, just known who they are as people, and most of them are just genuinely good people.

People that genuinely want to help people and are interested in science and are good at science. And so they went this route, right? And it’s not any of their [01:05:00] individual faults that the healthcare system is what it is. Kind of same for pharmaceutical, right? Like there are these people that just really, you know, Enjoy this science and want to make a positive impact in the world.

They like 

Will: organic chemistry. 

Kristin: Right. They 

Will: just love it. Yeah. They love all the reactions. 

Kristin: And it’s not to say that the system doesn’t have its problems and that big pharma is an issue. Like all of those things can be true at the same time. So everybody just like What I don’t want is for people to get upset that we’re even like talking to somebody, you know, in the pharmaceutical industry.

Let 

Will: us know what you think. We’ll hear your feedback. There’s lots of ways to hit us up. You can email us knockknockhigh at human content. com. Uh, we also have social media channels on everything. You can hang out with us in the human content podcast family on Instagram and TikTok at humancontentpods.

Thank you to the great listeners, leaving feedback and reviews. Uh, if you, if you subscribe and comment on your favorite podcasting app or on YouTube at [01:06:00] Glaucum Fleckens, we can give you a shout out. Like today we have at the Chaka 888 on YouTube said so wonderful to get to meet Dr. Mauricio. Thanks for all the great information.

That was a fun episode. That was 

Kristin: a fun episode. I hope people have checked that one out. Mauricio Gonzalez. 

Will: Full video episodes up every week on our YouTube channel at Glaucum Fleckens. Plural. There’s two of us here. Lots of cool perks on Patreon too. Bonus episodes of React to medical shows and movies.

Hang out with other people in our little Knock Knock High community. Interactive Q& A, live stream events, add free episode access, and much more. Patreon. com slash Glockenpike, or go to Glockenpike. com. Speaking of Patreon community perks, new member shout out time. I love new member shout out. Sherry, Campbell, Katie F, and Melinda B.

It’s a big week on Patreon. Thank you for joining and thank you to the Jonathans as usual. Shout out to you all. Patrick, Lizzy, Sharon S, Omer, Edward, K, Stephen G, Jonathan F, Marion W, Mr. Granddaddy, Caitlin C, Brianna L, KL, Keith G, [01:07:00] JJ H, Derek N, Mary H, Susanna F, Jenny J, Mohammed K, Aviga Parker, Ryan. I always think about that now.

Kristin: Avika Parker Ryan! Avika 

Will: Parker Ryan! Thank you! Muhammad L, David H, Jack K, David H again, Gabe, Gary M, Eric, B, Medical Meg, Bubbly Salt and the one and only Pink Macho. I think 

Kristin: that, uh, Rob, our producer here, uh, is the one that puts these together. I think that he needs to rearrange these in order to make them as difficult to say.

That would ruin 

Will: me. That would ruin me. All the 

Kristin: G’s and J’s together. Patreon 

Will: roulette time. Random shout out to someone on the emergency medicine tier, Sarah T. Thank you for being a patron, and thank you all for listening. We’re your hosts, Will and Kristen Plenner. We also know as the Glockenfleckens.

Special thanks to our guests, Morgan McSweeney, PhD, aka Dr. Nock. Our executive producers are Will Flanders, Christopher Flander, Aaron Korney, Rob Goldman, and Shahnti Brooke. Editor, engineer, assistant producer, our music is by Omer Ben Zvi. To learn about a 9 to 9 guys program, STEM, ethics, policies, mission, verification, and the licensing terms.

You need to go back and do that one [01:08:00] again. Submission, verification, and licensing terms. And. Those HIPAA release terms. You can go to Glockenflaken. com or reach out to us, knocknockhigh at human content. com with any questions, concerns, or fun medical puns. Knock, knock high is a human content production.

Goodbye. Hey, Kristen, you went to the doctor recently. I 

[music]: did. I had my annual checkup. Did

Will: they have a Jonathan? 

Kristin: They had a virtual Jonathan. 

Will: Oh. 

Kristin: Yes, in fact, it was a DAX co pilot from Microsoft. 

Will: That’s, oh, those things are amazing. I love it. They are. It’s just, there’s just so much documentation burden. And I’m sure, did your doctor look at you in the eye? 

Kristin: Yes, there was a lot of eye contact. Isn’t 

Will: that great?

And the, the, the virtual Jonathan, just, I’m sure it, it lifted your doctor’s spirits. Put a pep 

Kristin: in her soul. Just 

Will: to be able to get through the day and actually have like a [01:09:00] relationship with you is a huge deal. In fact, uh, 80 percent of physicians who use DAX Copilot say it reduces cognitive burden. 

Kristin: I believe it.

It seemed pretty slick. 

Will: Yeah, and you just be more focused on what you’re doing and just, you know, Do what we’re trained to do, practice medicine. To learn about how DAX Copilot can help you reduce burnout and restore the joy of practicing medicine, visit aka. ms slash knock, knock high. Again, that’s aka. ms slash knock, knock high.