Transcript
Will: [00:00:00] Knock, knock, hi! Knock,
knock, hi!
Hello, and welcome to Knock, Knock, Hi! with the Glockenfleckens. I am Dr. Glockenflecken.
Kristin: I am Lady Glockenflecken.
Will: We’re so excited to have you join us today. We’re going to talk about tampons.
Kristin: Mm hmm. That’s right.
Will: Does that excite you as much as it excites me?
Kristin: Does it excite you? It
Will: doesn’t, but that’s okay. I don’t know a lot about them, and we have like the foremost authority on
Kristin: all things tampons
Will: today, Dr.
Jen Gunter, but it has kind of made me think like the talk about this kind of stuff with our children.
Kristin: Oh, yeah, yeah, that’s really on your mind lately. You must be sensing that it’s coming. It’s
Will: what is coming
Kristin: I know but like it must maybe there’s something in the air
Will: like I just you know I know that some of these conversations are [00:01:00] gonna have to come from you
Kristin: from
Will: like just a
Kristin: you know, but it’s a funny thing when you’re a doctor family and the doctor is the is the male is the dad because Both very valid perspectives to share.
Will: Well, no, absolutely. I’m, and I will be, I can, I’m happy to talk with her about like the, any of the scientific, you know, medical side of things, but the, the actual use of the thing, of the products, probably best coming from you.
Kristin: Right. I don’t think you have much to share on that topic, any knowledge to
Will: impart.
But how, how do you feel as a, as a, as a woman, as a parent? Like the, those types of. Does that kind of conversation, are you nervous about it? Are you, it’s not a big deal? Is it?
Kristin: No, uh, I, I don’t know. I, we’re very, um, scientific all the time anyway. Like that’s just how we’ve raised our children, you know? So it’s just another, it’s [00:02:00] really kind of just another science conversation.
I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m not worried about it. You seem to be worried about it.
Will: Not really. I’m not worried. It’s just like, like, and more like, Anxious like when’s it gonna happen kind of thing, right?
Kristin: I have no anxiety over this.
Will: Maybe anxiety is a bad word It’s it’s it’s like anticipation. I don’t like when like it’s yeah, you just want to get it over with Yeah, I just want to get like I feel like that’s gonna be like a big event in our in our lives You know whenever our kid has her first period
Kristin: I feel like you might be Give, like overselling this to yourself.
Like you’re making too big of a deal out of it. Like if you, if you make this big of a deal out of it, then you’re just gonna embarrass her.
Will: Well, I mean, you mean that we shouldn’t throw a party? Is that not, is that not how it works?
Kristin: Gotta make some phone calls then.
Will: Do you get balloons? You know, is there a cake involved?
I don’t know. Alright, well I’ll just, [00:03:00] I’ll just take your lead on this, on this thing. Okay,
Kristin: that would be best. How’s that? That’s a good idea.
Will: Should I just keep my thoughts to myself at all times?
Kristin: Probably.
Will: You always told me not to do that anymore though.
Kristin: Well, I think what you do is maybe run him past me if you are thinking of sharing something with the child.
Maybe just check it first.
Will: Okay. All right. Well, I think it’s fair to say she’ll probably come to you first.
Kristin: Probably.
Will: Right.
Kristin: Yeah,
Will: I
Kristin: think. I don’t know. I’m very curious how this is all gonna go down. Because of the doctor thing, like I said, like any time throughout their entire childhood that they’ve had a question about their bodies, I’ll give them an answer, but then I will say you really should ask your dad.
Will: Yeah.
Kristin: You know, he’s the one that studied all of this and he knows a lot more. I still know a
Will: lot more. I’ve been after all these years. All right. Well, anyway, let’s, let’s talk to our guest who knows much more about these things than we do. She
Kristin: does. Yes.
Will: Alright, so, uh, you all know her, Dr. Jen Gunter. She is an [00:04:00] author, a physician, um, she’s all over social media.
We’ve had her, she was our, our, one of our first guests on this podcast and we’re finally getting her back after a year and a half. Her latest book is called Blood. The science, medicine, and mythology of menstruation. She’s a very talented author and speaker and physician and everything. So.
Kristin: And just all around human.
I know I’m a little jealous, but it’s fine.
Will: So here she is, Dr. Jane Gunter.
Today’s episode is brought to you by the Nuance Dragon Ambient Experience, or DAX for short, to learn about how the DAX copilot can help reduce burnout and restore the joy of practicing medicine. Stick around after the episode. Or visit nuance. com slash discover decks. That’s N U A N C E. com slash discover D A X.
All right. We’re here with the one and only Jen Gunter. Jen, thank you so much for coming on [00:05:00] again. This is your second time. You’re the first guest we’ve had on twice now.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Ooh, I was the first guest, the twice guest. It
Will: was like the first, we, we, we launched with a few episodes. Yeah. Back in January of 2023.
And you were one of those first three guests. And so, oh,
Kristin: I wasn’t the first.
Will: I think,
Kristin: well, there was three all at the same time. So yeah, you’re
Will: all a group of three, but I do feel like, I feel like we’ve gotten better at this whole podcast since then.
Kristin: If not, we should hang it up.
Will: But I appreciate you coming on and let’s see.
So it’s, it’s, it’s been, uh, like a year and a half since we’ve We’ve talked like you’ve just been more and more busy doing things. You’ve written another book. You, you have, uh, a, um, obviously your social media presence, your sub stack, your, your newsletter, like all the other things you do. Oh, that is a sub.
Okay. My, my point, my question is like in something that we can maybe learn [00:06:00] from, like, how do you stay sane? Do you have any tips?
Dr. Jen Gunter: You’re making the assumption that I
Will: am sane, right? What keeps you, what’s your, uh, what’s your way to relax? Because I feel like we need some tips.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Oh, a way to relax. Oh, my way to relax is to get outside, go for a walk, um, watch some Star Trek.
Star Trek. Oh, nice. I love Star Trek. Yeah. Yeah, we watched, yesterday we went back and watched the first reboot movie, the one with Chris Pine. You know, yeah, I love Star Trek.
Will: You’re a Trekkie. Yeah. Okay. Has that been all your life?
Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I remember when I was, I don’t know, in my early teens, you know, maybe nine, ten, would, in where I grew up in Canada, it would be on.
Sunday nights, I think at 1135 on, or maybe it was Saturday night, 735 on I’m pretty sure the PBS channel that we got from the States.
Will: And so
Dr. Jen Gunter: I was [00:07:00] like, what is this show where people are wearing like pajamas? And, um,
Will: that could be a medical show that you described, but you know,
Dr. Jen Gunter: and so, yeah, I got, I was, I really, I got really into it when I was a kid.
And then when they had the first, yeah. The first reboot with, um, Sean LePicard, I was in medical school, I’m pretty sure. Maybe it was my, maybe a little bit undergrad when it started, but yeah, I was all through medical school and residency. And so that was kind of always like my comfort show during that too.
Will: See, I think I need a new show to like, get into.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Another
Kristin: one?
Will: I don’t have a lot of shows.
Kristin: Oh.
Will: I watch a lot of sports. So you’re always
Kristin: watching TV. I am
Will: not always watching TV. Stop it. Our kids, they, they’re the ones that are, especially over the summer.
Kristin: Yeah,
Will: they watch too much. Are your kids
Kristin: that way too?
Have they been that way? Like, please tell us we’re not alone.
Dr. Jen Gunter: All the, all of the carefully crafted routine that you try to create over the school [00:08:00] year goes to shit during the summer. Yes. And then it’s like, it becomes like feral.
Singers: Oh yeah. And
Dr. Jen Gunter: that’s fine if you’re like at a lake house and you can send the kids out to play all day.
But when you actually have a job and a life and other things to do, then it doesn’t work. So, so yeah. So I feel your pain. My kids are now, uh, they’re turning 21 in a couple of weeks. So I’m now, you know, past that.
Will: Well, I, I was catching up on, on your social media, uh, recently, uh, and knowing that you were going to be coming on and, um, and a couple things, one, your, your, your son recently was in the hospital.
You were open about talking about this on social media. He’s doing okay now?
Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah. Yeah. He’s doing okay. He, um, you know, he’s one of these recipients of amazing evidence based medicine. I think you can, you, you can, you can have some, uh, you know, kinship with that, right? Absolutely. Um, he, he was born with congenital heart defects and, uh, had, um, uh, had a hole in his heart closed when he [00:09:00] was, uh, well, had his, had his valve actually opened.
He had pulmonary valve stenosis when he was only 1200 grams, cause he was a preemie. Um, so pretty, pretty crazy technology, right, to have an interventional pediatric cardiologist do that. And then he had a hole in his heart closed when he was two. And that was like all these temporizing procedures until he had like the definitive procedure because he had a.
Now had an incompetent pulmonary valve. And so they have to ride the time of, you know, they want to put a valve in when you finish growing. So you can get the biggest valve. but they don’t want to put it in too late in case you get bad heart damage from having your bad valve. So, you know, he was 20 and it was time to do.
And so he had it done. And I would say that So he had his pulmonary valve replaced and he had what I would consider evidence based medicine at its most magnificent. So it was, is this one of those,
Will: is this one of those, uh, cause I know with some valves, forgive me, I am an ophthalmologist here, but, um, they go in like [00:10:00] through the femoral artery to replace the valve or is this like an open heart?
So this was open heart, but
Dr. Jen Gunter: here’s, here’s the gynecologist explaining to the ophthalmologist. Yeah,
Will: I’m sure some
Dr. Jen Gunter: CV surgeon is going to be listening to this going, Oh my God, that is a comedy podcast. But there was an option to do it percutaneously through the femoral artery, but because technology hasn’t advanced quite far enough, there aren’t as many valve choices.
Singers: So
Dr. Jen Gunter: for somebody who’s very young, you want to put in the biggest possible valve. And also they thought they had a chance of repairing his native valve, which would have been best. Um, but when they got in there through the open heart surgery, they couldn’t repair his valve. They tried and it leaked and it’s so high tech.
I mean, they’re monitoring it with an echo and they’re operating this. This totally blew my mind. They operated on the right side of his heart without stopping his heart. So he’s beating the hell out of them. He’s on bypass, but they don’t [00:11:00] stop. I don’t know. I’m a gynecologist. Wow. I know. So they replaced him.
I know they replaced his valve and every single thing happened. Like they said, every single person was lovely. There wasn’t one medication dose that came like 20 minutes late. Like, like it was like, Jayco, you should come in, like, like, look at this. This is how it should run, right? It was, I left the hospital thinking I would do an ad for this.
This was, and you think, wow, when everything runs perfectly, it’s, it’s amazing.
Will: How long was the surgery?
Dr. Jen Gunter: Two and a half hours. I mean, maybe three and a half, when you add all the lines and everything they had to put in, you know, beforehand. So, I know, it’s crazy, right? Okay, so you knew he was gonna have
Kristin: this since he was, you know, It’s a tiny little thing.
Uh, and so like, just as a mom, and I’m asking cause it’s relevant for us too, like he’s got this ticking deadline hanging over us, right? If he’s got to get his defibrillator changed eventually, [00:12:00] and so they will have to stop his heart and, and test the new one. Right. Anyway. So how do you, like, that’s 20 years as a mom of just knowing, you know, your son’s gonna, gonna need open heart surgery.
How do you, how do you do that?
Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah. So, You don’t think about it. Yeah Denial and
Kristin: repression. Okay.
Dr. Jen Gunter: I would actually say it’s not denial. It’s worrying about things you can control.
Kristin: Well, that’s true Yeah,
Dr. Jen Gunter: because I can’t control it. It’s gotta happen. And so, you know, so I try to think about what are all the things that I can do to make that thing when it eventually happens better.
Well, I can encourage them to follow a heart healthy lifestyle, which is like hard for a kid, but you know, you can try. You can encourage them to do exercise and you can absolutely not think about what has to happen next year or two years or five years down the road because you literally can’t control that.
And then all you’re going to do is then ruin that time up to there.
Singers: Right.
Dr. Jen Gunter: So it’s one thing if there’s Okay. Are there two [00:13:00] different like options you’ve been presented and you need to do some research to try to sort out which is the best one. But I really just said, okay, I have to let this go. I have to let this go because it will drive me mad.
And also, you know, I had faith in his, uh, cardiologist. I thought she was a fantastic, I think she’s a fantastic cardiologist. She’d really thought a lot about it. Um, and they present all the pediatric cases. They have like a, like a, Heart Conference, where they all present their cases, they all look at the echoes and everybody gets together, you know, in the same way we’re familiar with Tumor Board and other things.
And so, I just said I have to put my faith in the expertise that’s there. Once you’ve, once you’ve found an expert you trust in, I just have to like, let it go.
Will: Yeah. Yeah. What kind of valve was it
Dr. Jen Gunter: pulmonary valves? It
Will: was, but it was a, I know they had like, oh, he has me mechanical valves and
Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah. I like, I don’t know, some kind of bovine
Will: something or other.
I, I don’t, something
Dr. Jen Gunter: something like animal structure. Biosynthetic. [00:14:00] Yeah. Um, that’s good. You know, that sounded, that sounded
Will: convincing that, you know, you’re talking about a biosynthetic
Dr. Jen Gunter: valve. . Yeah. So some kind of biosynthetic valve, which will not be. Valve for his full lifespan, um, but,
Will: but they do wear out eventually and they do.
Okay.
Dr. Jen Gunter: So I kind of had lived in hope that at some point they’re going to invent some technology where they can take your stem cells and they can like grow like heart valve and, or, or take a platform from like a pig valve and then put your You’re native tissue on it, but they’re not there yet. But, you know, 20
Will: years, who knows?
I mean, and they’ll be able to do it in about 30 minutes and get paid, uh, 10 percent of what they did for this one. So that’s, that’s kind of how it goes in medicine. So exactly.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah. You don’t get paid for your expertise at all. Um, and, and so, yeah, I mean, it was really fascinating. And the thing that actually has affected me the most when I’ve not the most, but, uh, is that his heart murmur’s gone.
So his whole life, he’s had this like, he had a [00:15:00] thrill, like you could feel his murmur. So I would lie in bed with him as a baby and my hand on his chest, I could feel his murmur, which is like, not a good thing, but that that was his heart. Now it’s gone. It’s so like his heart change. He’s got a little click when you listen to it with valve, but, um, that, that murmur that, that thing that I would lie in bed and my hand on his chest and that, that was him is gone.
So it’s kind of weird.
Kristin: Yeah.
Will: And he’s, but he’s feeling better now, right? He’s
Dr. Jen Gunter: yeah. His energy level is, is insane. And I kept telling him before I said, I think, uh, really believe that you’re not operating at peak function and I believe it’s due to your heart. And I had all these like soft tells as a mom and just things that would make him tired that wouldn’t and it wasn’t that he was lying.
He was tired. He was like physically exhausted. And I’m like, really that exhausts you and you’re 17? So, um, and he has a twin. So I like, I have a comparison, right? Like about, you know, and oh my gosh, his energy level now is [00:16:00] like, he’s like. I don’t have to nap every day now. And he’s like, really upset about that.
Cause you’re like, going to have his nap.
Will: Well, I think this is a, actually a really good ad for like valve replacement surgery.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like, yeah. But it, yeah, but it’s not an ad for Toradol.
Will: No. Yeah. So, so what happened there?
Dr. Jen Gunter: So he had, uh, you know, Terrible pain after a sternotomy, right?
Imagine they cut into your chest and then it’s not like if you break a bone and you can put it in a cast Like there’s no cast for your chest and it has to move all the time, right? So terrible pain and the opioids didn’t touch it and because you know If you give him enough opioids to control the pain then he’s not breathing and then he’s not, you know Getting his lungs filled like, you know in medicine.
It’s all this like robbing Peter to pay Paul all the time, these risks and benefits, which are hard to explain to people. So they said, well, let’s try some Toradol. And oh my God, it was like magic. It took the pain [00:17:00] away. He was like, can, can I have Toradol all the time? Can I take Toradol home? Can I become like a Toradol like, you know, aficionado?
And so I was a bit like, And for those
Will: of you who don’t know, Toradol is a, is an NSAID. So kind of like, like ibuprofen, but it’s just much stronger. And it’s given IV or IM, IV?
Dr. Jen Gunter: IV for one dose. And then you can have oral, you can have it up to five days. And it’s because it’s associated with a lot more. It’s got sort of like all the NSAID complications on steroids.
Again, this is a gynecologist explaining it. So, um, but so all of, all of the side effects you think about are risks with NSAIDs like stomach and kidney have a higher risk with Toradol. But again, you’re in this like, Rob and Peter to pay Paul. The opioids aren’t working. He can’t take deep breaths. Like you have to give him something like, like you have to do it.
I’m sorry. It’s my cat is now drinking from my water. Um, and
Will: don’t get toxoplasmosis, please. All right.
Dr. Jen Gunter: And, uh, and [00:18:00] so, um, he had it for, I think 40, he had to have her four days in the hospital because nothing else was working. It allowed him to get out of bed, it allowed him to get up and walk. And then, um, you know, 10 days later he collapsed at home, um, and it had a massive GI bleed.
And so then the wheels kind of fell off and, uh, got admitted to ICU and had to have, you know, two scopes and, um, had chest pain. Yeah. He had, he had four. Um, yeah. And just, he used up all the, he’s O negative. He used up all the O negative blood in the blood bank. Like,
Singers: yeah.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Um, so I was like on Twitter going, Hey, there’s an O negative blood shortage in the Bay area.
And if anybody feels, yeah. And you know what actually is really touching. So many people said, can I go get blood?
Will: Aww. That’s, that’s awesome. Yeah. Wow.
Dr. Jen Gunter: And so Modern Medicine came through again and, [00:19:00] uh, you know, uh, and he’s at home and, um, he’s
Will: How long was that second, that second stay?
Dr. Jen Gunter: Oh, six days. So far more traumatic actually than, um, than the heart surgery.
Isn’t that crazy? Yeah.
Kristin: I get that. Yeah. Yeah.
Will: What, um, what kind of a physician parent of a patient are you? Yeah. Yeah. Because you’re used to, obviously you’ve been through a lot, right? You’re used to being on the, on the, you know, family side of things, but, uh, does it, do you feel like, uh, having your medical background makes it easier or worse?
Dr. Jen Gunter: So, so, you know, I, yeah, so both my kids were in the ICU for three months, they were on oxygen for a year, multiple surgeries, multiple, like, you know, they had retinopathy prematurity. We were at the ophthalmologist every week for like, eight weeks after they got out. Like, so I’ve been a medical parent a lot.
And my other son has congenital hypothyroidism. He has cerebral palsy, although he’s doing really well. And [00:20:00] so like I’ve had, we’ve been like with every specialist and I know good care when I see it. And when my kids are getting good care, I say nothing. I let the system work as it should. Because, you know, when you’re like, I want special, that’s when I Everything goes wrong, right?
When you try to like, if the system’s running well, and everybody’s doing their job, when they’ve accounted for all the Swiss cheese holes, right? When it’s working as it should, it’s amazing. It really is. It shows you how good you have these incredibly trained people. So like when he had heart surgery, There was only one time I said something and I was like, I was, I thank God I didn’t actually say anything more.
So he was in the hospital. He had a, he had a, an irregular rhythm. He had a big run of bigeminy, which there is a risk for after you can understand they cut into your heart. It might be angry. So I was like, I’m looking at the monitor going, so I call the nurse and it takes her like three or four minutes to come in.
I’m freaking out because this looks like some ventricular action and [00:21:00] I’m a gynecologist like, what the hell? And they’ve told us about this. They’re like, cardioversions are risk, like all. So, you know, your, your mind goes to dark places. Right. And so the nurse comes in and I was all prepared to be like, what did you just learn?
She goes, she walks in, she goes, I’m sorry, I took a few minutes. I saw the, I saw the irregular rhythm. I downloaded it. I texted it to the cardiologist on call. And now I’m here to talk to you. And I was like, okay, great. Thank you so much. That’s the system
Will: at work right there. Yeah. So
Dr. Jen Gunter: when you have Smart staff you and when you have well trained people and you have a system that allows them to do their job It works great.
Singers: Yeah, so
Dr. Jen Gunter: I didn’t say that was the only time I had even thought about saying something You know, and they made great calls about well, we’ll wake him up to give him this medicine. We won’t wake him up to give him this medicine. How can we, you know, cause he needs to get his sleep. Like it was, I’m telling you, I walked out of the hospital saying, I see why this medical center, which is my medical center that I work at, I [00:22:00] see why they’re highly rated for cardiac care.
I would have my heart surgery here. Like, like there was just no, there was like no notes, 10 out of 10.
Kristin: Yeah.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Um, so yeah, so when that’s happening, so that’s the advantage, like when you’re trained, you can see, wow, okay, that’s great care. I’m just. But then the converse is also true, you know, when you’re in the ER with your son and you know he’s hypovolemic and no one else is listening to you,
Kristin: um,
Dr. Jen Gunter: then I become somebody that you would be very afraid of.
Kristin: I believe it. I would not want to be on the business end of Jen Gunter. Well, I mean,
Will: advocating for yourself and your family is, yeah, I would want Jen on
Kristin: my, on my side. But I wouldn’t want to be on the other side of it, yeah.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, I got, I got no, I got no problem making every single person hate me. I have like no issue with that.
Um, and Well,
Will: it’s, it’s what you’re, what you’re talking about. Actually, we had a conversation recently about like this concept of VIP patients and [00:23:00] how dangerous that can be because it has a potential to get people out of their normal routines. And, and that’s, that’s where protocols get disrupted and mistakes start to happen.
And so there’s a lot to be said about letting the system do its job as long as it’s doing its job.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah. I mean, and I have, you know, you know, as the fortunate thing when you’re in medicine, you just kind of know how, how long of a rope you can give, right?
Singers: Yeah.
Dr. Jen Gunter: And so, but like, Yeah. Like, when he had his heart surgery, nobody knew, because he has a different last name.
You know, this is my hospital where I operate, I’m in the OR all the time. And you know, I’ve got my mask on and my hair in a hat, so, and people aren’t looking to see me in that context. So, nobody even knew it was me. It wasn’t until he’d gone back to the operating room, I went out to the, um, the pre op nurses and just said, you know, thank you so much for taking such care of him, it’s, it’s Jen.
And they were like, you know, um, so, You know, I mean, so it was, it was amazing, but, you know, it’s after, you know, his, his care after wasn’t [00:24:00] maybe quite the same. Um, but you know, it, it, we got through it and, um, And now he’s feeling
Will: good and he’s back at work. You said, right?
Dr. Jen Gunter: He’s feeling good. And back to work.
And, you know, something that one of the doctors did at the, after he had his, And the hospital was, um, one of the ICU doctors, which is lovely, lovely. Um, and you know, he called him after he got home to see how he was doing.
Kristin: And just that, like,
Dr. Jen Gunter: He really remembered that and that was just such a, a lovely touch, you know, um, so, you know, when people do those little tiny things, like it’s like, what, like five minutes out of your day and just what that can do for somebody.
Kristin: Right. This is what I talk about all the time and I think it’s important that we all keep having this conversation about it’s not. just delivering medicine that you’re doing, right? There’s this whole humanity, but you are a person interacting with another person. And if you treat them that way, it goes so much better than if you just treat patients and their [00:25:00] families as, you know, a case or an annoyance or what have you.
And it is. It’s just the little tiny things like calling to see, you know, to follow up or to, uh, you know, asking how someone is doing, making eye contact. I mean, just Simple, simple things that I feel like we shouldn’t have to say that people should be doing. But, but I guess we do and they do make such a difference when they do happen.
Dr. Jen Gunter: You know, I, I used, so I’ve been doing this for a really long time. Um, I, you know, I got in, I started medical school when I was 20, so I’m almost 60. So I’ve been doing this for almost 40 years. And I would say that. Because of all the like cuts and the, you know, the, the effort people are spending, like with insurances or, you know, with understaffing or all that kind of stuff.
Like people just don’t have the energy for that. And they don’t have the time versus, you know, when I first started in medicine, you know, that’s when like, Like, everybody had their own secretary who was, you know, in like an academic [00:26:00] medicine, running everything, had their schedule. And it was very like, almost like 1960s, that you’d almost think about it, but it, and obviously that was a patriarchal model and it had issues with it, but it goes to show that, you know, To deliver that kind of, like, care, you really need, like, an accessory person helping with, like, this scheduling, the this, the that.
Oh, you need to call Mrs. So and so because this happened. This one person can’t do it all. And I really feel the way medicine is going is they’re making one person do it all.
Will: Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. especially with the increasing corporatization of, of medicine, um, which lends itself to budget cuts in different ways and prioritizing the wrong things.
And so that’s, it’s a big problem, but let’s, let’s take a break. I’ve got a question for you. A really important question. Okay.
All right. We are back with Dr. Jen Gunter. Uh, Jen, my, I’m going to [00:27:00] slightly switch gears here, but this is an extremely important question. Um, what the hell is going on with tampons right now? What’s I, I was, I was perusing your social media and it’s just all this controversy around, like why, what’s, what’s going on?
Tampons have been around for how long? I imagine
Dr. Jen Gunter: A while.
Will: Quite a while.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, so there’s still
Will: things coming out about like, or there’s controversy. I don’t know. Tell us what’s going on.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, so this is a great example or a sad example depending on how you want to look at it of of how the media is with a lot of stuff and how they’re really just concerned about ginning up fear factors.
But I would also say that it’s also an example in many ways of the problems with corporate medicine because if you’re a university and you’re releasing a press release that makes your exploratory study sound like more than it is, [00:28:00] then that kind of gets things going, right? How different are you than Andrew Wakefield?
I mean, that would be what I would say that if you’re, because what happens is you have these busy news decks, they get a press release, they just copy and paste and off you go. And so nobody stops to think like, what does this mean? And let’s put this in context with the body of knowledge. Right? So, so yeah, so somebody did an exploratory study to see if there were heavy metals in tampons.
Tampons have cotton and cotton is a plant and plants accumulate metals. In fact, kale is apparently so good at accumulating junk from the soil that apparently they’re investigating it to clean up oil spills.
Singers: Oh my god. Okay.
Dr. Jen Gunter: So, so first of all, it’s a little bit hypocritical to get worked up over one thing and, and not put it in context with what other exposures are.
So the amount of lead that was found in a tampon is in parts, you know, parts per billion. Um, and [00:29:00] certainly in an individual tampon, less than what’s allowed in a bottle of water. Okay, so that’s a little different context than saying there are heavy metals and tampons. But of course, there’s no nuance in social media.
There’s no nuance in everything and it just goes crazy. Almost nobody talked about the fact there have actually been two studies that looked at levels of heavy metals and tampons and if people had higher blood levels or not, and they didn’t. Now, they weren’t definitive studies because you know as well as I do that you know, that a lot of the data comes from, Oh, well, what can we pull from this older study that looked at it?
You know, so,
Singers: so
Dr. Jen Gunter: you, you, medicine is a process of getting closer and closer and closer to what you think is the right answer, right? How do you have that nuance? And so, yeah, so that’s, So my big joke is, I feel like a, I feel like a, I feel like Maximus in, um, in Gladiator.
Kristin: You
Dr. Jen Gunter: know, this is [00:30:00] my eighth great tampon campaign.
Like, that’s how I feel. Because when I was a kid, When I was 12 and I had just started menstruating, it was toxic shock syndrome. So that was a valid concern. Then people said there were diox, dioxins in tampons. There weren’t. People said there were asbestos in tampons. There weren’t. Um, you know, people, I know people said tampons caused endometriosis.
There’s no data to show that. And it goes on and on and on and on. And think, is there any other consumer product that has been so vilified?
Will: That’s a good question. I was just, as you were describing, I was thinking about that. What is going on? What is it with tampons? I mean, I’m sure you have, have, you know, reasons why you think that, well, so why don’t you tell us what, what is it about tampons compared to other consumer products?
Dr. Jen Gunter: So we live in a. A patriarchal society where, um, where even, even though most of us know that virginity is a social construct and it means nothing, that for, if for a couple of thousand years, [00:31:00] the worth of a woman has been her virginity and her childbearing, if you stoke up fears related to those things, they get traction in a way that fears about eyedrops wouldn’t.
Singers: Yeah.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Right? Because it’s, it’s like in our DNA almost, it’s because if my mother and her mother and her mother and her mother were steeped in it, it’s, we, there are subtle signals about it that we just don’t know. That’s my theory is that, you know, if you’re taking, so, and the tampon is the dual thing, you’re taking, you know, virginity.
Again, it’s a social construct and doesn’t exist, um, and you’re taking fears about reproductive potential. This is going to damage your fertility. So you’ve hit the holy grail of patriarchal, you know, fear mongering. And then you throw in that, you know, fear sells on social media, right? You know, the truth doesn’t
Singers: sell.
Absolutely.
Dr. Jen Gunter: And I mean, that’s the reason why TikTok feeds me shark attack videos. Yeah, because that’s like my deep seated fear growing [00:32:00] up in Winnipeg on a lake that I was gonna get killed by a shark. Seriously, Jaws really did it. You got sharks up there? Yeah, right. And where the lake freezes, the lake gets eight feet of ice in the winter.
So yeah, a lot of sharks in that lake. Yeah, you’re
Singers: probably alright.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah, exactly. If they can get through all the hydroelectric dams from Hudson’s Swim up from us. A tenacious
Will: shark, man. I mean, if he
Dr. Jen Gunter: manages to get there, he deserves to have a meal, you know, I’m just saying. I know. I’m coming for you, Gunter.
I could sense it when I was in the mid Atlantic.
Will: So you’re, you’re seeing, so I, and I’ve seen this happen, I mean, to a lesser extent with eyeball stuff, but, um, You know, like there was the, the news story about the over the counter eye drops that had Pseudomonas in them and was like killing people. And so it was like this, this fear of, and I felt it in my patients coming to see me, like, I don’t know what eye drops to get now, like what’s [00:33:00] safe, what’s not.
And so there’s a lot of fear that’s built up by story, like news stories. That, that go viral on social media. So you’re seeing this happen with the, the study, this, this exploratory study.
Kristin: Well, I’m curious too, like, is there a difference between, do you see it with
Dr. Jen Gunter: menstrual
Kristin: discs?
Dr. Jen Gunter: So people, it’s really interesting.
So people almost never talk about, um, potential issues. So people always hold out that like, oh, well, menstrual cups and discs are safer and they’re not associated with toxic shock syndrome, but they absolutely are. You just see less cases because they were a smaller percentage of use. And so I think some of it’s also, you know, the, you know, the love of natural and people somehow view a silicone menstrual disc as more natural than a cotton tampon.
I mean, it’s bizarre. How is that more natural? Does it make sense? You know, none of this makes any sense. I’m wondering
Kristin: if it has to do, I mean, especially if we’re taking this lens of, of, you know, hitting these, you know, sore spots within the patriarchy of, of the shape of each of the [00:34:00] two.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Sure. It could be.
Absolutely. But also there’ve been so many tampon scares that every generation’s had one. So, and if you think like seriously, between the time I was 12, there’ve been six. About two years ago, it was all viral over TikTok because there’s titanium dioxide in tampon strings. It’s a bleaching agent. It’s totally fine.
It’s like, there’s no issues with it. It’s in toothpaste. If it caused problems, don’t we think like rubbing it into your gums, we’d know if it was causing cancer? Like, and you’re swallowing it because you can’t help but swallow some of the, like seriously. And so some of it’s science literacy, but also things like tampons and.
I’m going to guess eyedrops and lots of other things that are sold over the counter that we tell people to use kind of exist in this like unstudied sphere, right? Because they’re not FDA approved. They didn’t have to have their, well, tampons are, but they don’t have to have those, the same kind of studies or the FDA cleared rather.
So, We don’t, we can’t, they’re not [00:35:00] really medical devices. So we can’t say we’re dependent on these companies. So it’s sort of this weird space. And look, I believe corporate corporations want to screw people over. So yeah, absolutely. The fear that a company is making something that is unsafe for you is not an unsound fear.
concern, right? And then you have this problem that you don’t have good data to say what’s in something, what’s not in something, what would pose a level of harm because it’s never really studied because it’s not a medical device, right? So in the same way that hair dye is not studied, I don’t dye my hair anymore, but it’s not studied.
So we don’t have the ability to say that. So we have to sort of piece things together. And so what can we say for tampons? Well, we can say that To the best of our knowledge, you’re not associated with any health conditions. They have been studied for the effect on the microbiome and they don’t have an effect.
So if there was something like coming off them, you would start to see like maybe some signals with the microbiome. But you can also say it’s also true that the microbiome studies are older and we have newer [00:36:00] technology. And so again, it’s this, how do you convey to people? that we have no safety signals, but that doesn’t mean it’s not worth studying because we have newer technology than we used to have.
And maybe we can get closer and closer and closer to providing more reassurance, but that doesn’t sell on TikTok.
Will: No, it doesn’t. And I would venture to say that Um, that you trying to dispel some of these myths and, and bringing, you know, reason into this, into this topic, uh, probably invited a lot more, um, hate and, and anger that you were trying to like, you say that, you know, that there is no, you know, problem with heavy metals and, and tampons.
It’s like, you, I’m sure you got a lot more pushback on that than, I guess what I’m saying is people were probably much more quickly able to accept that, oh yeah, there are heavy metals and tampons than when you coming in and saying, no, they’re not. And, and, and it’s, it’s frustrating [00:37:00] as a, as a professional, you know, someone who’s actually looked into this to be able to, to.
to see that response. Yeah,
Kristin: how quickly like conspiracy theories or just things that are just not true will catch on and they feel intuitive. And so they’re,
Dr. Jen Gunter: yeah,
Kristin: they spread faster than actual facts.
Dr. Jen Gunter: And they feel intuitive because there’ve been so many tampon scares and because of the whole virginity and fertility and all these kinds of things.
So they feel intuitive, I think in a way that I drop things don’t feel intuitive. And it’s really interesting. You know, I’ll say to people and then what will happen is people say, Oh, so you believe that people should be having lead. I’m like, Oh my God, that is not what I said. Um, at all, at all. Um, but if you’re worked up about lead exposure, which You know what?
We should be.
Singers: Yep.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Your biggest concern should actually be drinking water. It really should be. Because there is a lot of places in a lot of parts of the United States that, you know, have unsafe drinking water. And the amount of lead that’s allowed in drinking water is double the amount that’s allowed in bottled [00:38:00] water in the United States.
So, so if you think about, like, if you’re concerned about lead exposure. then it’s very hypocritical to only make videos about tampons. If you’re making videos about supplements, green tea can have lots of lead in it. Um, so, you know, there’s, so it’s just, it’s this hypocrisy that is like, oh, so you’re only interested now.
And of course, as we all know, you know, it’s one thing if you have an eyedrop, you’re actually like putting the stuff in a solution in your body, right? So you think, how could a metal That’s probably bound to the cotton, right? Get into the vagina, never mind into the bloodstream. Well, in the study, you know, they have to dissolve it in nitric acid, which lower pH in the vagina, and then bake it for over an hour at 180 degrees Celsius.
So I don’t know about you, but my vagina can’t bake something. My oven only goes up to like 110 Fahrenheit. It is not an easy bake oven. So, you know, [00:39:00] again, this gets back to science literacy. Like it’s one thing to to dissolve a product, to test what’s in it, but then what just happens to it in, in your body is, is the thing.
Right. And so it’s so, and I just think when you look at all the headlines from, and even a lot of the articles, I pulled a lot of them, you know, the articles weren’t really bad, but the headlines are terrible. And so no one, I mean, whatever, 80 percent of people don’t read the articles. So the damage is done.
Will: Well, you know, that actually, you know, let’s actually let’s take one more break and I want to play a little game that that has to do with all of this stuff. So we’ll be right
Singers: back.
Will: Hey Kristen, I see you found my friends.
Kristin: Well, you sort of forced them on me. Did you ever
Will: think eyelid mites would be so cute?
Kristin: No, I did not. Look at
Will: these little guys with their little legs.
Kristin: These ones are pretty cute. Crawling all over your eyelids. These little stuffed animal guys.
Will: Yeah, I don’t
Kristin: think the real [00:40:00] ones would be as cute.
I don’t want them on my eyelids.
Will: Almost though. Close. I mean the one problem is they do cause a disease called Demodex blepharitis.
Kristin: That is a problem.
Will: Yeah, you get red, itchy, irritated eyelids.
Kristin: Yeah, and all crusty. Yeah,
Will: it’s kind of uncomfortable. You just want to just rub your eyes.
Kristin: Yeah. No, thank you.
Will: Well, but it’s not something you should get freaked out by.
You gotta get checked out.
Kristin: Oh, okay. Yeah, that’s
Will: right. Eye doctors, we see these little guys sometimes, right? Nothing to be scared of. All right. Just got to get checked out. To get more information, go to eyelidcheck. com. Again, that’s E Y E L I D check. com to get more information about our little friends here and demodex blepharitis.
All right. We’re back, Dr. Jen Gunter. So Jen, last time you were on this podcast, we played a game called common ground. Where we had to come up with things that have to do with both [00:41:00] ophthalmology and OBGYN, so like dilation, uh, the, the, the fundus, you know, there’s certain things. Well, we’re going to do a slightly different take on this, um, and, and find common ground among grifters.
Because you’ve, in your specialty, you got some grifters that try to sell people on certain things. In my specialty, I got some grifters. And so let’s go back and forth and just, um, bring up some of the grifts in our specialties respectively. All right. So we’ll just, we’ll try to go through this quickly.
Yeah. So just whatever comes, you know, top of your mind. So why don’t you start? What’s a, what’s a grift in, in your neck of the woods?
Dr. Jen Gunter: Oh, supplements to balance your hormones. That’s a good
Kristin: one.
Dr. Jen Gunter: It’s
Will: a good one.
Kristin: Cause it sounds so scientific. And so the average person isn’t going to be able to parse out if that’s, you know, nonsense or not.
Will: Right. All right. Here’s mine. Mine’s like a 80 percent grift is a blue light blocking glasses.
Kristin: Oh yeah.
Will: Yeah. People like [00:42:00] that. The only research that shows that it might potentially have a benefit is in helping regulate your circadian rhythm. And so like wearing them right before if you’re staring at your screen right before bed, yeah, maybe it’ll help you sleep a little bit better or you could just not stare at your screen in bed.
But. None of us are gonna do that.
Kristin: You’re, yeah. I was gonna say, if you’re prescribing that, you’re a big old hypocrite. .
Will: The issue is that, is that you got people who, who sell blue light blocking glasses as something that’s going to decrease eye strain. Mm-Hmm. . That’s going to improve the health of your eye.
Decrease your risk for macular degeneration. All of that’s garbage. Yeah. So it really bothers me when I see people selling blue light glasses based on inappropriate.
Dr. Jen Gunter: uses. Yeah. So anyway. No, that’s a good one. Um, another one we have is, well, diet, optimal diets, right? For your, um, menstrual cycle, optimal diets for menopause and, and of course, you know, none of that is true because you know, your, your heart rules everything and the optimal diet for your [00:43:00] body is the optimal diet for your heart.
Will: There you go. That’s a good one. Um, Eye color change treatments. Oh, that’s a recent one. There’s like, uh, you know, terrible surgeries that you can’t even get in the US, um, where people will have, uh, implants put in the eye that can change your eye color and does it doesn’t change your eye color. It just puts like a, it’s like a disc, a colored disc in front of your iris.
That can make you go blind and cause inflammation. Why not
Kristin: just use colored contacts? Good
Will: question. Like,
Kristin: then you can change them out at will.
Will: That’s, that’s, that’s. You don’t have to have an invasive surgery. And there are good, like, options for doing that. Yeah. But, yeah. And then, but now, you can find supplement eyedrops that claim that they will change your eye color.
And then, you have a rainbow’s worth of colors to choose from. So, it’s like, oh yeah, really? Someone with brown eyes? You can just start. Using these eyedrops, they’re going to have blue eyes in a, [00:44:00] you know, a couple weeks. All right. Give me a break. So anyway.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Oh, that’s, yeah, it freaks me out. I’m just, I can’t, you know, it’s one thing.
I mean, obviously there’s a lot of people who end up doing things with their reproductive tract that end up causing them harm. But the idea of having like an unregulated procedure on your eye, which could have just, you know, immediate catastrophic consequences is just frightening.
Will: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
What else you got? You got anything else? Um, another grift.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Let’s do one more. Oh, um, working out at different times of your menstrual cycle. There’s specific exercises that, that to optimize your workout, you should do this in this phase and this in this phase, and it would be bad to do cardio in this phase.
No, I’m not kidding. That’s a, that’s a grift.
Kristin: Oh my goodness.
Will: How
Kristin: do people come up with these things, you know?
Will: Um, I don’t know. I think it’s, I think it’s surprisingly easy to claim something health related. I [00:45:00] feel like it’s just
Kristin: a lottery ball system. Like they just mix a bunch of things together and they’re like, okay, how are we going to spin this
Will: story?
If you present yourself professionally enough and say it confidently enough, You will find people to believe you. Yeah. Yeah, especially if you’re a white male. There’s a psychology to it. Yeah You know,
Dr. Jen Gunter: well, these all come from women all these myths are like women. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah,
Kristin: well, we’re not the only
Will: bad ones.
Kristin: No, I’m just saying it’s easy for you But I didn’t say you’re the only one, you know, or that’s
Dr. Jen Gunter: nuts. Here’s an speaking of nuts There’s seed cycling where you’re Where each week of your menstrual cycle you need to eat a different seed or nut for optimal health. Oh, why? So what if you’re born someone is the, like, I always think, okay, so let’s go, let’s go back a thousand years.
2000 years. Hmm. Let me guess. You’re living in, I don’t know, like, uh, Celtic Britain. I don’t think they grow almonds there. Right. And [00:46:00] what, so you’re just like, outta luck. Um, they don’t have pumpkin seeds there. So, so how did. How are so many cultures around the world, people living in the sub arctic, people living in the Sahara, people living in New Zealand, people living in climates that are so different, where their food sources are so different, how are they all able to reproduce?
How could that have happened? Amazing.
Will: I don’t know. Maybe
Dr. Jen Gunter: it’s because humans are omnivores. Being omnivores allowed you to live in all these places, right? Um, you know, it’s like they act like we’re koala bears. Like, what? They
Kristin: Everybody is so obsessed with optimization, too. Like, I feel like so many of these grifts all boil down right now, at least, to this idea of optimization.
We
Will: all need to live until we’re 150. That’s so important.
Kristin: Why life’s a drag. Why do you wanna be alive? That mom ?
Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, it’s so funny. It’s like these people are missing the, the journey
Kristin: this [00:47:00] optimization is, and like our bodies are already optimized to be human beings. I think there’s systems in place to make sure that, have they not heard of homeostasis?
Will: Like I think for some people we’re fine. I think for some people it’s a sport to them. Yeah. Like to do the, the take 50 supplements a day and. And, and figure out your, your adjusted age. And the idea that you can like
Kristin: take control over your health. Control is a lot of it. Yeah. Age of anxiety right now.
Absolutely.
Dr. Jen Gunter: And then, you know, I get these great Instagrams, which I love of these like women in their seventies and eighties, like breaking sports records. So I just saw this video this morning of this 79 year old woman deadlifting and, um, the other day of a 75 year old woman doing, um, the pole vault.
Yeah. Right? Like, it’s just like, it’s incredible. And it’s like, wow, it’s almost as if the secret to longevity is genetics. Um, exercise. and eating healthy and having a hobby. It’s [00:48:00] almost as if it’s those four things.
Will: Right. I mean, I keep telling you to get into pole vaulting.
Kristin: I know you do, but I just, I don’t know.
I can’t find a pole that’s short enough for me.
Dr. Jen Gunter: That to me is like some crazy physics. Like I’m not, I don’t have, I have terrible vestibular function. Like if I’m parked on a slope, I think the car is going to flop over. Like I just, I have no vestibular ability. And when I see people doing these things or like, Simone Biles like the way they’re twisting.
I’m just like I like
Will: yeah, you would yeah, I tried to do any of that I’d break every bone in my body.
Kristin: Oh, yeah Starting with your legs, right if you try to do a flip because they would hit
Will: because
Kristin: you’re
Will: too tall. Yeah Here’s here’s my here’s my last grift. That’s okay. Lately. It’s been really Irritating me, is the, uh, the benefit of eye exercises.
Oh. I’m so, so tired of this.
Kristin: I do really enjoy the mental image, though, of like your eyeballs [00:49:00] with like little tiny arms.
Will: Well, here’s the thing.
Kristin: Like dumbbells, lifting weights. Here’s
Will: the thing. People will take like one thing that has a very narrow indication. and use. Like we have this thing called pencil push ups, which are kind of like an eye exercise for people with convergence insufficiency, mostly kids, kids that are unable to kind of bring their eyes together to converge properly.
Um, you can do exercises to try to get them to increase their range of convergence.
Singers: Okay.
Will: People, that’s a real thing that we do. People will take something like that. and decide everybody needs to do it and they’ll expand the reasons why you would do it. I think that that’s where a lot of grifts seem to, to originate from, is there is like something that is actually a medical thing, but they just blow it up into this unrecognizable thing.
And so now you have people say, I use eye exercises, uh, you [00:50:00] won’t need glasses. You know, you, you have, you know, you, you need reading glasses. Well, if you did eye exercises, you can get a, here’s my 10 part course that you can take to try to show you how to improve the health of your eyes. And it’s all like eye exercises and it’s nonsense things too.
They’re like, you know, you know, having them do these exercises. I’ve never even heard of. to exercise muscles that probably don’t even exist. I don’t know. So.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Yeah. It’s, it’s amazing. I, it’s, it’s, it’s really because it, but they’re, you know, they’re preying on people who don’t have any knowledge and they take this one scientific sounding fact that may have some grounding in science and then blow it up and then they present it with, you know, they have, there’s great salespeople.
Singers: And
Dr. Jen Gunter: people are desperate and, you know, people don’t, they don’t want to have, wear glasses, they don’t want to have, you know, their cataract removed or whatever, people are scared. And so they do these things as opposed to like me, I’m like, I just [00:51:00] found I have a cataract. And I’m like, am I not young for this?
Um, and fortunately the doctor said, yes, yes, you are. I was like, okay, good. So right answer.
Will: Well, you can’t exercise your cataracts away. I’m sorry to tell you, Jen, it’s not possible, but, uh.
Dr. Jen Gunter: It’s amazing what a new prescription does. Yes,
Will: it does.
Dr. Jen Gunter: I was in the, I was in the optometrist and she’s like, oh, your eyes are really deteriorated in the last two years.
I’m like, yeah, I know. Thank you for noticing. And, uh, she’s like, how do you see? Oh, well, you know, I’m a gynecologist. We do most things by feel. So, you know, um, I see with my fingers. And anyway, so, uh, it was crazy. So. She did the thing with color where they show red and green. And so I’m looking with my one eye and it looks like all kind of dull green and grow red.
And then she put in the new lens and I was like, I literally gasped. I was like, it’s supposed to be that bright.
Will: I’m so glad to hear that. I’m so glad you got yourself. Those are new [00:52:00] glasses. Is that new
Dr. Jen Gunter: glasses? Yeah, I can see again. I was in such a bad mood. I’m like, I can’t read anything, I guess, you know, um, so yeah, so now I’m on the countdown, the, the cataract surgery countdown, I guess, in a couple of years.
Will: Well, you can’t, it’s not something you can escape. Everybody gets cataracts by the, I tell people by the age of 60, and I’m not sure how old you are, but by the age of 60, everybody has cataracts. So, and it
Dr. Jen Gunter: does,
Will: it tend to happen a little bit sooner too. So anyway, it’s an inevitability. But, uh, I
Dr. Jen Gunter: know. And can I just, can I show you our, our, our, our little eye patient here?
Sure. See? Yeah.
Will: Oh yeah. Oh, I know, I know what you’re about to, to show me here it
Dr. Jen Gunter: your one eye. Yep.
Will: Oh, I remember a few years ago you told me about your one eye cat. We’re seeing little one eye cat. What happened to the eye? Did, is that, um, is that how the cat came ?
Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, she came to me that way, but um, she was found on the street as a kitten, um, with Kitty chlamydia.
in her eye. So apparently they get chlamydia or [00:53:00] herpes or something. Um, and so, uh, but she also had, um, has some kind of congenital like malformation of her tear duct or something. And so they had to enucleate one eye and then they, they actually paid to reconstruct her other one, which is kind of weird.
And her pupils all kind of wonky too. Um, but they did it cause she’s so sweet. Normally, you know, they’re like a. And Amy Cole Kitten on the street that bad. Um, but she just, she’s just a love bug and she just allows me to do. Aw.
Will: Well, I’m glad, I’m glad they saved the other eye. That’s good. Yeah,
Dr. Jen Gunter: but it’s so my fear.
What’s
Will: the cat’s name? What’s the cat’s name? Luna. Luna. Okay.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Luna. So my big fear though is eyedrops. I think, I think that I like they’re awful. They’re just like that concept of, and so. Yeah. Very
Kristin: uncomfortable.
Dr. Jen Gunter: But here’s like my penance is like I have to put drops in my cat’s eye.
Kristin: That sounds impossible.
Will: Yeah, I don’t know how you do that for a cat. We did it for our dog, but it’s a dog. Yeah, cats are like notoriously, [00:54:00] you know, do their own thing.
Dr. Jen Gunter: I think it must feel good for her eye. Because she, um, they’re just like whatever the artificial tears, right? Um, and so I think it must feel good because she doesn’t fight at all.
Kristin: Oh, nice.
Will: It’s
Kristin: nice.
Will: Yeah. Well, Jen, tell us about, so we’re, as we wrap up here, tell us what’s going on in your life now. What are the projects you’re working on? I know you have your book, your most recent book, uh, Blood, the Science, Medicine and Mythology of Menstruation.
Singers: Yeah.
Will: Um, so people can check that out.
What else you got?
Dr. Jen Gunter: Um, what’s my sub stack? I’m writing on that. Um, let’s see what else is coming up. Uh, I’m going to Australia for a couple of weeks. I’m really excited about that. Never been. When are you going to be there? I’m going, uh, in August. I’m speaking at, they have a science week in Sydney, and then they also have a festival of dangerous ideas that I’m speaking at.
So they were able to Time it, so I kind of have a week between, so we’re gonna go, um, do some [00:55:00] touristy stuff. So that’s very exciting. Very cool. And then I have a new book I’m working on, um, called Pandora’s. Of course you do. Yes. What’s it called? It’s called Pandora’s Legacy, which is about kind of legacy of sexism in medicine and not just how, you know, we don’t have enough things to, you know, to advise women about, but also about how that, you know, gets affected.
by the way stories are told to the press and social media and how it’s allowed all this grifting to happen. And so, you know, the legacy is, you know, it’s, it’s co opted and abused by so many people as well.
Will: Wow. All right. We’ll be looking out for that.
Dr. Jen Gunter: I’m pretty sure that you
Kristin: are. Superhuman.
Will: Yeah. I don’t
Kristin: know how you do all this.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, you know, I don’t know. I actually don’t really watch much TV, so that’s probably, I have a lot of time for that. Um, But I will say,
Will: The support of her one eyed cat buoys her spirits. Exactly. Clearly.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Exactly. Although I have to tell you, I’m really obsessed with the show The Boys. [00:56:00]
Will: Oh yeah, The Superhero Show.
Okay, I do watch that
Dr. Jen Gunter: one. Yeah. It’s, I watch it with my, I watch it with one of my sons and it’s like our thing that we watch and then we have these complex discussions about this character and this motivation.
Will: That’s great. It’s a good bonding experience.
Dr. Jen Gunter: It is. Yeah, we’re bonding over
Will: disemboweling. Yeah, it’s a pretty violent, pretty bloody.
As a doctor’s
Dr. Jen Gunter: family tends to do. That’s right. You can bring the
Will: medicine into it. Well, uh, Jana, it’s always a pleasure talking with you. Thank you for coming on. We’ll be looking out for your new book. When is that? How long does it take you to write a book?
Dr. Jen Gunter: Oh, it takes at least a year to write it. I think it’s coming out in 2026.
So okay early days.
Will: Yeah early days. All right.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Well, I’m excited about it. Yeah.
Will: Well, good luck to you We’ll talk to you next time.
Dr. Jen Gunter: Thanks for having me on and Luna said, thank you.
Will: I Don’t know how someone like writes one book much less like multiple books and like no finishes a [00:57:00] book I would think like if I finished a book I’d be like I’m not gonna write ever again. Yeah, that was it. That was everything I have to say. I’ve written what I need to write. And I, there’s nothing else to write but then to like, to keep writing books.
Kristin: And her books require so much research too. Like she really goes a deep dive on things. I
Will: hope she has a team. You know, like somebody to help with the research.
Kristin: I kinda, I mean maybe she does, I don’t know, but I get the sense that she just
Will: He
Kristin: likes to do that. She just knows her stuff. It makes me feel, um, like a very subpar human being.
Will: Well, you guys should go check out her stuff. Check out her books. Uh, you have the, you have her books.
Kristin: I do. I think I have all of her books. And I will get the new one.
Will: And, uh, also her website, or she has a, a, a, a, Substack. I can’t remember the name for the Substack. Substack Newsletter, The Vagenda. I think it’s what it’s called, Vaginda, um, and, uh, I’ve [00:58:00] always, I’ve been following, you know, Dr.
Gunter for, for years, and I love her stuff. Uh, let us know what you thought of the episode, if you have any, uh, any feedback, any, any stories you’d like to give us, uh, anything that, that, uh, sparks something in your brain about our conversation, uh, any grifters That you want to shout out, not shout, shout down, I should say.
If you have any, any, any grifters you want us to highlight, I’d be more than happy to do that. Um, let us know lots of ways to hit us up, email us, knock, knock high at human content. com. Hang out with us on social media, uh, either us or our human content podcast family, or both on Instagram and TikTok at human content pods.
Lots of great stuff coming. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, thanks to all the wonderful listeners leaving comments. Feedback and reviews. If you subscribe and comment on your favorite podcasting app or on YouTube, by the way, our YouTube channel. TheGlockenFleckens.
Kristin: At GlockenFleckens.
Will: At, it’s called [00:59:00] TheGlockenFleckens, but it’s at GlockenFleckens.
We can give you a shout out, like today, at TankGuy3 on YouTube said, will you make an episode of Knock Knock High with your production team as the guests? Okay.
Kristin: Interesting suggestion.
Will: We got to figure out which one we should have on.
Kristin: It could go many different directions. All three at the
Will: same time? I don’t know about that.
It’d be a fun
Kristin: time. It
Will: would be a fun, it’d be very chaotic time.
Kristin: Yeah.
Will: Full of video episodes are up every week on our YouTube channel at Glockum Fleckens. We also have a Patreon, lots of cool perks, bonus episodes, where we react to medical shows and movies. Hang out with other members of the Knock Knock High community.
Great group of people, fantastic, get a lot done. It’s good. Interactive Q& A, live stream events, early ad free episode access, lots more, patreon. com slash Glockum Fleckens. Or go to GlockumFleckens. com. Speaking of Patreon community perks, new member shout out, Nora M. Dimitri F. Rose, and Justin H. Thank you all [01:00:00] for joining
Kristin: our little community.
Will: And shoutout to all the Jonathans, as usual. Patrick, Lucia C, Sharon S, Omar, Edward K, Steven G, Jonathan F, Mary and W, Mr. Grandaddy, Kaitlyn C, Brianna L, Kay L, Keith G, JJ H, Derek N, Mary H, Susanna F, Ginny G, A, Ginny J, Mohamed K, Aviga Parker, Ryan, Mohamed L, David H, Jack K, David H again, different David H, Gabe, Gary M, Eric, B, Medical Mag, Kulby Salt,
Kristin: and Pink Macho.
Oh,
Will: we got a lot of Jonathans.
Kristin: Mm hmm. New Jonathans.
Will: New Jonathans.
Kristin: Welcome all the Jonathans.
Will: Patreon Roulette. Random shout out to someone on the emergency medicine tier of Patreon. Tracy P. Thank you, Tracy P. For being a patron. And thank you all for listening. We’re your hosts, Will and Kristen Planery.
Also known as the Galaga Buckets. Special thanks to our guest, the wonderful Dr. Jim Gunter. Our executive producers are Will Planery, Kristen Planery, Aaron Korney. Good guest. Maybe. Rob Goldman, good guest. Yeah, I think so. [01:01:00] Shahnti, good guest? Oh yeah. Our Editor in Engineer is Jason Portiza. Our music is by Omer Ben Zvi.
To learn about our Knock Knock Highs, Program Disclaimer, Ethics Policy, Submission Verification, Licensing Terms, and HIPAA Release Terms, Go to Glockenflaken. com or reach out to us at knockknockhigh at human content. com with any questions, concerns, or any fun medical jokes or puns or riddles if you have them.
Knock Knock High is a human content production.
Singers: Goodbye!
Kristin: Hey
Will: Kristen, would you like to have a Jonathan in your life?
Kristin: Would I ever.
Will: Why don’t you have me? That’s something, right?
Kristin: Uh, yeah. Yeah, that’s something. Just something.
Will: Yeah.
Kristin: But do you have a Jonathan? Are you offering?
Will: I, no. I do have the Nuance Dragon Ambient Experience, or DAX for short.
Kristin: All right. That’s kind of like a Jonathan.
That’s great.
Will: It’s AI powered ambient technology. Sits down in the room with you. It helps decrease admin burden.
Kristin: Mm hmm. Could
Will: all use a [01:02:00] little help with admin work. Definitely.
Kristin: No one needs more paperwork.
Will: It reduces burnout. It improves the patient physician relationship.
Kristin: Yeah, we really need that these days.
It
Will: helps physicians get back to what they love to do. It’s just taking care of patients. Yeah. Right? I mean, 79 percent of physicians also say their work life balance improved on DAX. I’m in
Kristin: favor of work life balance.
Will: I’m an ophthalmologist. You know, I love me some work life balance, right? Today’s physicians report are feeling overwhelmed and burdened so much that work life balance feels unattainable.
Singers: Yeah.
Will: Well, if DAX can help, that’s great. Right? Yes. All right. To learn more about how the Nuance Dragon Ambient Experience or DAX copilot, visit nuance. com slash discover DAX. That’s N U A N C E dot com slash discover D A X.
