Storytelling with Internist Dr. Emily Silverman

KKH Trailer Wide


Will: [00:00:00] Knock, knock. Hi. Hello and welcome to Knock-knock. Hi, with the Glock fls. I am Dr. Glock Flecking. I’m Lady Glock Flecking. We’re so happy you’re here and, uh, for this wonderful storytelling show. Uh, this is, we’re focused. Storytelling, everything that goes into making stories and not making stories, telling stories.

Well, creating a story, creating a story out of your real life events. We were talking with Dr. Emily Silverman today, and if you don’t know Dr. Silverman, she is, uh, the creator of the Nocturnes, which is a, a small group organization, uh, that, that basically puts on stories, is very active in storytelling within medicine for, [00:01:00] um, you know, they put on live events and is a podcast.

And anyway, all storytelling is their business. It’s 

Kristin: inspired by the Moth and it’s inspired by the, this is captured some really interesting, um, healthcare stories that as we talk about in the episode. Yeah. Um, have been archived for posterity in a, in a pretty 

Will: impressive way. So it’s really fun, really fun talking with her.

So I hope you enjoy it. But before we get there, , uh, I was since, you know, I know we would be talking with Dr. Silverman. Mm-hmm. , so I was like, okay. Stories like what? I, I should have some stories. 

Kristin: Yeah. We have a, we have a daughter that’s very good at 

Will: storytelling and, uh, so I, I did, I do have one story about our kids.

Okay. Uh, and so this was recently, uh, our oldest, uh, who is a big reader and very much into science and space these days. And, and so she 10 years old. She’s 10 years old, and, and so she had all these ideas about like physics and space and time, and she was [00:02:00] trying to tell us and formula like she had formulated all these thoughts.

Kristin: I feel like we should set the stage, like the level of what she’s reading as a 10 year old is cosmic queries. By Neil Degrass Tyson. Yeah. Which is an adult popular astrophysics book. So she’s super into, like, I, she knows 

Will: more than I do about, yeah. So she’s into Neil Degrass Tyson, so, you know, big fan. And, um, and so, and my dad is a retired aerospace engineer.

And so she was telling us like all these things about like the time and space and stuff, and it’s kind of going over our heads a little bit. And so you’re like, Hey, you should talk to your, to, to, to your, your grandpa. And so, you know, 

Kristin: as a good parent does, you just find 

Will: someone calm this off on, he would be very interested and can hold an intelligent conversation about this with you.

And so I. So we were the kitchen, and I got, I got her on the, um, uh, on the iPad to talk to, to my dad. [00:03:00] And then they started having their like, really high level science-y conversation. And then I, um, go in to check on our, uh, younger daughter who’s seven. Also very 

Kristin: smart. I mean, 

Will: she’s intelligent and oh, she’s very intelligent.

Uh, but just to, to, to show you kind of the difference between the two. Um, you know, I, I walk in, I overhear her singing mm-hmm. , um, a song, and I was like, what is she singing? And she’s like, she’s playing by herself. And she was singing, oh, oh, oh, oh, Riley auto fart.

And it was, uh, you know, just two very big extremes. 

Kristin: And it’s one is me and one is you. And we’ll let the listener decide who’s who. It was one 

Will: of the funnier things that I’ve never laughed so hard at a fart joke in my life, . Um, I loved it and I love our kids and how different they are. Yes. Uh, and it’s just, it’s, it’s [00:04:00] amazing to me how different kids can be.

Kristin: Yeah. Same, same parents, same household, same genetic material, totally 

Will: different kids. So let’s just, let’s get to our guest today. So Dr. Let’s Emily Silverman. Uh, she is an assistant volunteer professor of medicine at U C S F in San Francisco, uh, and creator and host of the Nocturnists an amazing, uh, storytelling group and, um, uh, with putting on a lot of really cool content.

So let’s, let’s, let’s get to it. Let’s talk with her. Here we go.

Dr. Silverman, can I, can I call you Emily? Yes. Is that all right, Emily? Yes, please. Thank you so much for joining us. I’ve been a big fan of yours, uh, now for actually quite a while on social media. Yeah, same, uh, with the amazing work you’re doing in storytelling. And, um, it’s as, as something that I do pretty regularly with my skits is basically like storytelling, right?

It’s, and [00:05:00] you’re do, you’re taking it to like a whole new level and, uh, it’s just really impressive. So I’d love to hear how you got started on this route in medicine and in your life. Yes. 

Dr. Emily Silverman: I’d love to tell you, uh, I’d also just love to thank you for having me and say I’m so excited to see both of you . And before I answer your question, I have to tell you that over the holidays I was in Miami, Florida, which is where I grew up.

I was visiting my dad and we stayed in this little Airbnb. and we have a one-year-old girl and we took her out in the stroller and we took her to this park to a playground and I’m pushing her in the swing and there’s another mom next to me and she’s pushing her girl in the swing and we get talking and her husband.

Is a ophthalmology resident at Baskin Palmer. Oh, okay. And I was like, it’s a good place. So I’ve heard . Yeah, . And I said to her, have you by any chance heard of Dr. Gla Flein? And she like lit [00:06:00] up and we both just nerded out. And I said to her, you know what? I just love his work so much that, and I’m gonna be on his podcast in a few weeks and I’m so excited and.

Get starstruck much, but I feel like I would be more starstruck by him than by like George Clooney or something. . And she was like, she was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. She was like, George Clooney. That’s not be crazy. Yeah. , 

Will: let’s, let’s tone it down a little bit. Although I do appreciate being included in the same breath as George Clooney.

That’s, that’s very nice. Uh, he’s, he actually, and with his characterization on, on er, uh, you, you’re, you’re, you’ve, you’ve watched er, right? Yes. Yeah. I mean, he, he actually might know a little bit more medicine than me at this point. He might. So, yeah. 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Yeah. Well, I did walk it back. I said, you know what, on second thought, I think that was a little, yeah.

George Clooney, it was a little much, but I was trying to just convey Yeah. My affection for you and, and for your comedy. So, um, well, I appreciate that. 

Will: Well, anyway, it’s, I, I think it’s, it’s so cool. I think. [00:07:00] Just the different paths you can go in medicine. Right. I mean, it’s like, I never thought that I’d be, you know, doing, I just started doing these, these videos, these skits because I, I was in lockdown and needed to pass the time.

Right. And then it just kind of turns into, so it’s always just amazes me how you can get started doing something and then it just, it can, it can take in directions that you never thought it would. And sometimes it kind of take over your life in a lot of ways. Yes. Right. Yes. And I’m sure that’s probably the same experience you had with, with what you’re doing.

Dr. Emily Silverman: Totally. Yeah. I mean, I understand that, uh, lady Gla confl here is now a full-time gfl. I she is Herb it is now . So yeah, it really can, it can take over your life. And that’s, and so same thing happened to me. Do you want me to answer your question now? I’m sorry. Yeah, please answer. No, go 

Will: ahead. Absolutely. I, I’d love, I’ve been dying to know, cuz it’s, it’s such a unique, uh, do you call it a hobby, a job?

I mean, I, I don’t know what call it pursuit, but [00:08:00] it’s, um, it’s so unique and, and very interesting. So I’d love to hear the origin story. . 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Yeah, so the origin story is I always wanted to be a doctor from the time I was a little kid, and then came to U C S F for Internal Medicine residency, and about halfway through residency had kind of a crisis of, I don’t even know what, I think just feeling strange because I had been dreaming about this my whole life and I was actually just really unhappy in the job.

And some of that was just residency and the. Abusive wor working conditions of residency, but some of it was deeper and more, I think, related to just healthcare and how it’s delivered and how it’s paid for and how dehumanizing it is and how um, the relationships are really getting stripped out and it’s becoming an assembly line and things like that.

Um, so there was a lot there, , and yeah, it just got to a point where I had always been a super artistic, creative person and wanted to explore that through that lens. And it wasn’t just like a passing idea, it was actually [00:09:00] like a survival tactic. And people often ask me, how did you start this in residency?

How did you have time? And I always answer by saying, um, If I hadn’t done it, I actually don’t think I would’ve survived residency. So it was actually kind of a life raft in that way. So what I did was I decided I was inspired by the Moth. A friend of mine took me to, um, a live taping of the Moth, and for those who don’t know what that is, it’s a storytelling show on npr.

They do radio stuff and live stuff. and just was kind of electrified by the experience of being in the audience at this show and decided I wanted to try that in healthcare. And had always been somebody who enjoyed the theater and live experiences. So got 40 of my peers and colleagues in a room. We had several people stand up in front of the room, one by one Moth style.

Back then there was no coaching or anything like that. And we picked a theme. I think the first theme was promises, I wanna say. Mm-hmm. , and had them tell stories. And it was [00:10:00] just really special. It just felt like there was such a need. Oh yeah. And from there it just snowballed. And then, you know, right before Covid, we did a sold out show of 700 seats.

And that was like with virtually no marketing apparatus at all. It was all word. Word of mouth, word of mouth, community building, grassroots. And I think, again, stemming from this feeling that healthcare workers were having before Covid, which is like just really wanting to reconnect with the humanity of it all.

So, Awesome. That’s the, the short version. . 

Will: No, that’s, that’s, and it’s what you saying about using storytelling as a, as a life raft, as a, a way to just get through life. Um, that resonates with me a lot because my, my path in comedy kind of a similar thing. I, when I started med school, I’d gotten away from doing standup and, which was a huge hobby for me.

I’d been doing it, you know, high school, college, uh, and, and then, you know, I had like my first cancer diagnosis and that, like, I [00:11:00] had all these, this, this horrible experience I was going through and it, it just like, I had to kind of deal with that. The only way that I knew how to deal with it, which was just like telling jokes and so that I had to get back into comedy and I, you know, started starting to perform again and, and eventually doing the social media stuff.

And that’s, that’s the origin of it for me was like, it’s, it felt like something I had to do. It was like this impulse and it to help me to process things. And so, um, yeah, I totally relate to that. And it’s, it’s cuz you’re still, and you didn’t give up medicine, you’re still practicing medicine. No, I did.

Right. Oh, you did? I thought you were, uh, aren’t you, um, um, like a, a visiting or a, a volunteer 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Yes. Physician. Okay. So I didn’t fully, so the way it worked was, um, I got hired at full-time and then dropped down to 80% and then dropped down to 51%, which was like the lowest I could go and still be an employee and have benefits Oh, gotcha.

And things like that. And then [00:12:00] even that started to feel, um, Like there was all this whiplash of like being a doctor some days and growing this creative project on other days. And so I did March of 2021, make the decision to actually not be an employee anymore. And so what I am is in, I think it’s called Assistant Volunteer Clinical Professor of Medicine at U C S F.

Okay. And I do attend on the wards two weeks a year on a volunteer basis. So that’s a way for me to keep my feet wet in the clinical world. Yeah. And kind of stay connected to learners and to patients. Um, but that’s the extent of it. And then beyond that, um, I’m employed by the nocturnists and, and dedicating my time to that.

And people ask me a lot if I’m gonna go back to clinical medicine, this is my husband and my baby in the background, . Um, sorry about that. No, that’s okay. . 

Will: Hi husband. Hi baby . 

Dr. Emily Silverman: They’re gone. Um, people ask me a lot, uh, if I’m gonna go back to, to like being an employee at a hospital and doing full-time clinical medicine [00:13:00] and I actually don’t know.

I really. Is this still something that’s open for you or it’s open? I, I think if I went back it would have to be really different. Mm-hmm. , um, I’ve been thinking about what that might look like. Could that be palliative care or could that be direct primary care or, you know, something Yeah. Where there’s space for the story, but it also might be the case that I’m here on earth to do something else and that’s this weirder path.

Yeah. And so I’m trying to like feel into. Yeah. Like what, what is it that wants to happen? And just like, go with that. But some, it’s hard to know sometimes. Yeah. What’s 

Kristin: right. I had a very similar career trajectory of like, I had it all planned out and I was doing all the things and then I got there and I was like, I kind of hate this

Turns out and had to pivot and, you know, had no idea where I was going and, and you just learn to follow the next thing that feels right. Yes. That is available to you. And that’s what I’ve done for the [00:14:00] past 10 years or so. And, and I think it’s, it’s worked pretty well for me. I am happy with where all the places I’ve been.

And Sounds like it’s going well for you too. Yeah, 

Will: I can under, I can understand though how. It must be so difficult though, to make that decision to, to walk away completely from, from medicine, you know, because it’s, you’ve, you’ve spent so much of your life and most of us spend our twenties, right? A whole decade.

If you’re a neurosurgeon, maybe two decades, , uh, you know, getting to this point. So to like, to say, I, I don’t want this, and I, I’m gonna give this up, I think takes an incredible amount of courage. Uh, and, um, and so for you, and you’re holding on to, you said two weeks, a year. What do you, I’m interested in, like, what do you, what do you get out of that?

Uh, obviously it can keep your skills up a little bit, right? You’re still connected to medicine you have. Um, and so, I mean, I assume you’re, you [00:15:00] feel like that’s enough to, to you. Maintain your ability to practice medicine? 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Great question. Uh, I haven’t done it yet, so I actually have those two weeks coming up this spring.

So end of February, mid-March. I’m doing seven days, and then I’ll taking a little break and then my, yeah, next seven days. Um, so it’ll be my first time diving back in after this period of a break. Sure. And I am planning to brush up and, you know, read some stuff. Yeah. And listen to some podcasts to kind of, you know, make sure that I’m not falling behind.

But you’re right, it may be that it’s, um, that it’s not enough engagement for it to make sense. We’ll have to see how it plays out. Yeah. I mean, on the other hand, I, if it’s the teaching service, right? So, uh, I’ll be supervising a team of residents and interns and medical students, so it’s not me on my own.

Oh, yeah. You know, I’ll have other brains and things like that, but at the end of the day, I’m, I’m in charge. I’m making the decisions, and so I need to feel like that’s appropriate and then I’m able to do that. [00:16:00] Um, I feel like at academic medical centers, it actually happens a lot where you’ll have an expert, you know, maybe they’re like a researcher.

Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Or even like a primary care doctor who doesn’t do a lot of inpatient medicine, and then they’ll come in and attend for a couple weeks. So often. Yeah. Or a basic science or clinical researcher who doesn’t do a ton of clinical time will come in and attend for a couple weeks, so it’s not unprecedented.

Yeah. Um, but yeah, we’ll see how it feels and what do I get out of it. I mean, I guess we’ll see. I, yeah. Right. I do sometimes grieve. The loss of this old self and of the patients and the team based environment and, you know, the hospital and all of those things that, that we love. And so this might be a way to stay connected, but I don’t know if it’s gonna make sense to keep doing this in the medium to long term on a very like, practical and transactional level.

It is helpful to continue holding that U C S F status. Mm-hmm. , [00:17:00] um, you know, I get to have, you know, my U C S F email and, and all of those things. Um, but 

Will: yeah. Do you feel like you need, you, you need that clinical experience to be able to, to, to do the creative, creative thing, because that’s the struggle that I have.

Like, because people ask me like, are you doing this full-time? What, what’s the deal? No, I still practice medicine and I feel like I need to practice medicine because that’s my connection to my creative side. Right. In a lot of ways. Right. And so do you feel that, is it, is that something that’s a part of your thought process?


Dr. Emily Silverman: a great question. I think on the one hand I wanna say yes because so much of the creative work that I’ve made is directly related to medical culture, clinical work. I’ve lived it. And so there’s an authenticity I think that shines through in the work. And the other thing is, um, I’m not just like writing these [00:18:00] stories myself.

I’m actually putting out calls to the community, receiving stories from the community and help nurturing those stories to bring them onto the live stage or the podcast. And so in a way, it’s also kind of different cuz it’s not my voice so much as it is, I’m kind of the liaison between this creative team and the medical community.

is that going to continue to be necessary? I don’t know. I mean, the more I rev up my creative self, the more ideas I have for creative projects. And some of them are medical. Like I have, you know, a whole folder in my computer of like, maybe this could be a play, or this could be a film, or this could be a book, or this could be a podcast.

And a lot of those topics are medical, but some of them aren’t. Like, some of them are about other, you know, I was adopted for example. So it’s like I’m really exploring that and that doesn’t really have anything to do with healthcare, but there’s a lot of creative energy that I have around that topic. So it’s like, oh, if I wanted to do a project about that, that would maybe have to be [00:19:00] separate from the Nocturnists.

And so this is something I’m still navigating and I’m not sure. 

Kristin: Yeah, I think this, this illustrates a, you know, a struggle that I think a lot of people have, well, struggles, maybe not the right word, but a, a situation a lot of people in medicine might find themselves in, which is that, you know, People who are, um, attracted to the field of medicine and are successful and it tend to be rather intelligent and, you know, have a lot of talents in different things.

And so when you, when you have to choose between, you know, your many interests and your talents, it can be, it can be tricky to find the rights career paths. So I suspect there’s a lot of people in medicine who may have, you know, similar things. They have these two seemingly competing sides. And how do you manage to wind those together or have them, you know, separately, but both in your life or choose one over the other?

I mean, there’s no easy answers to that or, or right or wrong decisions. It’s probably something a lot of people can relate 

Dr. Emily Silverman: to. 

Will: Yeah, absolutely. [00:20:00] I, I mean, you know, sometimes people just want to, you know, step away from clinic and just wear costumes and wigs alone 

Kristin: in a room in their 

Will: house, like every other kind of doctor, I don’t know.

Yeah. Well, I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you if you, uh, if you, when you’re, as you’re getting back into, you know, clinical medicine and thing, if you need me to help you re refresh your memory on some Totally, yeah. Internal medicine things, please. You know, AFib? Oh yeah. All the, the heart and the, the two lungs. Uh yep.

The liver. I’m, I’m here for you, so don’t, don’t 

Dr. Emily Silverman: release . Yeah, that’ll, that’ll work out well for both of you. Phone a friend. Yeah. How many 

Will: years is it now that you’ve been doing the Nocturnists? 

Dr. Emily Silverman: It’s funny you ask cuz it, it just crossed seven years. Our first show was January 20, uh, 16. Oh my gosh. January, 2016.

So, um, wow. It’s January now, which means we’re hitting our seventh anniversary. And, 

Will: um, you [00:21:00] said that you had this big live event that was right before the pandemic, and I guess the implication being that once the pandemic hit everything just ground to a halt. Yeah. Um, Did you pivot into more? Is that when you started doing more of the podcasting kind of remote type work?

Dr. Emily Silverman: Yeah, it was one of those situations where you just adapt to the environment. So we couldn’t do live shows anymore coming off the high of this sold out, you know, 700 seat, the theatrical experience. So we’re like, all right, what do we do? That’s amazing. Yeah. And um, It was actually really beautiful. What ended up happening, which was we were able to lean into the podcast and produce some work that featured the voices of people all over the United States and beyond and not just the Bay Area.

And so we did stories from a Pandemic that was an audio documentary. We did Black Voices in Healthcare. And then the most recent one, shame in Medicine. And we just, uh, had no restrictions on who could have [00:22:00] their voice on the podcast cuz it was remote. So we have voices from east, west, you know, Midwest South.

And even in the, in the case of shame, um, had some voices from the UK cuz we had some collaborators overseas. So, We lost the magic of the, of the theater, but we gained, um, I’d say some more breath geographically. Yeah. Um, in, in our community. Expand a little bit. 

Kristin: That’s great. Yeah. And stories from the pandemic that may that, uh, didn’t that get into the national archives or something like that?

Dr. Emily Silverman: Yes, yes. So we, because we’re such a small, nimble organization, when the pandemic hit, we were able to start collecting the audio immediately. I think we put out the call like March 16th or something really early. And between March and end of May, we got hundreds of clips, uh, during that first wave. , and then we had some more trickle in over the next year.

But it was really that first wave where people were like, holy shit, what’s happening? That we got a lot of our material. And that has all been, [00:23:00] um, archived at the US Library of Congress as a historic record so that future generations of students and researchers and historians can hear straight from the mouths of healthcare workers what it was like.

Which is exciting because yeah, that is a, there’s a immediacy to it, uh, compared to somebody reflecting on it, say a year or two later. Right. They’re hearing you 10 years later. Real-time reactions. Yeah. It’s pretty cool. So that was 

Will: really great. Did you, uh, so you mentioned that really what kind of got you on this path was some of your own difficult experiences as a mm-hmm.

you know, residency and training. Would you be open to sharing something from that time in your life? Sure, 

Dr. Emily Silverman: sure. Um, there’s so many aspects of it that I could go into. Um, 

Will: do you have a really mean. Uh, you know, toxic attending at some point. , 

Dr. Emily Silverman: I definitely encountered like just rudeness in the, you know, like, and the shame that comes up when you call a [00:24:00] consult and they treat you like crap or the shame that comes up when you know you’re not sure what to do and you feel like an idiot.

Like all of that. Um, but the main one I think was, hmm, how do I put this succinctly, . Cause I tend to be long-winded. Um, 

Will: it’s okay. We got some time. . I 

Dr. Emily Silverman: feel like when you’re a resident dealing with a panel of patients, it’s sort of like, uh, the most intense and high stakes, like project management, like keeping track of that to-do list and putting in orders and making decisions and prioritizing and triaging tasks and ret triaging them constantly in real time as things come up.

The cognitive fragmentation of like, , you’re trying to think and, and, and sit and, and reckon with like, okay, why does Mr. Smith have renal failure? And you’re kind of in a cognitive place, and then it’s like, beep, beep, beep, beep, and then like suddenly you have to do something [00:25:00] else. Right? Um, whereas with surgeons, like if they’re in the middle of an operation and you page them, someone else picks up and they’re like, oh, so and so is doing surgery right now.

Like, you know, I’ll pass the message along. But our procedure as internist, our procedure is cognitive. And I felt like I just wasn’t able to get into a flow state really at all. I was just tension switching and task switching constantly. And my brain started to heat up, like almost like, um, a like computer drive.

And then I would come home and I would be exhausted. And that was all on top of the emotional dimension of, you know, grappling with illness and suffering and death around me. And then on top of that was the inhumane work hours and the 28 hour shifts. And I will say that, um, Toward the middle of residency, I started to develop a lot of like pelvic pain and symptoms, and my periods got all messed up and, um, developed, uh, endometriosis, which I ended up needing to have [00:26:00] surgery for toward the end of residency.

Hmm. And I’m pretty convinced that that all happened like as a direct consequence, right. Of me just completely neglecting my body. Um, there’s this concept of like, if you don’t say no, the body will say no for you. Mm-hmm. and express, you know mm-hmm. itself in that way. And so that definitely happened to me.

And that year, that whole journey of, of the endometriosis and the pelvic pain, which is much better now. Thank God. Um, , that was a whole side journey. And the, the experience of like having a thing that’s invisible and being a woman and being dismissed and ignored mm-hmm. and like that whole experience. So kind of seeing that through the patient’s eyes.

So, um, it was all of that. It was structural, it was cultural, it was everything. Um, and I was just like, ick. Like, yeah. 

Will: Yeah. I don’t know. I, I love, I love what you said about, uh, the difference, but I never thought about that. The difference between surgery and medicine and attention, [00:27:00] you know, as, as, you know, doing your cognitive tasks, you know, equating that to, you know, a, a kind of a, kind of like a surgical type task.

And, uh, and it’s so true. like we, you know, surgeons get to do, get to operate and, and don’t have to stop, you know, for anything else. I, I, I love that so much. Yeah. There’s an 

Kristin: input output thing that I think is, is a broader problem in America where output is what is valued. Things that we can see that we produce, right?

Like little widgets on a factory line. Um, but so much work nowadays is knowledge work and it’s invisible and it’s input. You need a lot of input for that, and you need a lot of time and space to think. And to the outside observer, that just looks like you’re doing nothing, it looks like standing still.

And so it’s not valued in the same way that output oriented work is 

Will: valued. I re, I remember how exhausted I was after internal medicine rounds. I mean, it was mainly cuz I was, it was like, like lasted for quite a while. But, uh, you know, it was, [00:28:00] it’s, it, it was, it was, it was very exhausting . And so I can, uh, you know, empathize with, um, with that perspective.

Kristin: remember watching you go through residency too, and, and seeing the same thing, but from the outside of, you know, I just remember I commented on it all the time. It was so ironic that like, here you are learning all about the body and these are, you know, your, your professors and your attendings are these experts in the body and none of you are taking care of your body and your entire system is set up to make you 

Dr. Emily Silverman: sick.

Exactly. Yeah. 

Kristin: And it just never made any sense to me and still doesn’t, but, but I remember watching you go through that and just thinking, this is so ironic and, you know, a little bit of my, like, faith in the healthcare system was chipped away by watching that. Like, I’m not sure, are these people equipped to be taking care of you?

They’ve been up for two days straight. Right? Like, you start to have some doubt in your, in your healthcare providers because you don’t know what the system has been asking them to do and, and what state they are in 

Will: now. . Yeah, I’m [00:29:00] sure that, and I’m sure there’s gonna be some things that you probably won’t miss about, you know, the daily, you know, yearly grind of, of clinical medicine.

Um, when in particular talking about our healthcare system. Yes. 

Dr. Emily Silverman: definitely. I mean, I go to bed every night and I don’t set an alarm. Yeah. Like I, that’s amazing. I just go 

Kristin: bed. You have a one-year-old, you’ve got a built-in 

Dr. Emily Silverman: alarm. That’s true. She’s a built-in alarm. That’s funny. . Yeah. 

Will: That’s funny. And talking about the, the, you know, the, the, the stress that’s placed on, on physicians and, and, and, and training.

But then once you get out of training, then there’s this whole other area of the healthcare system that, that kind of just, it really shouldn’t blindside us, but it does, it did for me is, was learning about, you know, health insurance and, and, and how, you know, government and politics really impact. The life of healthcare professionals, and that’s not something you get a lot of exposure to in training, and then it just hits [00:30:00] you like a brick wall whenever you start practicing medicine.

Right? And just adds to that, uh, that, that stress and that difficulty with trying to maintain work-life balance when you’re having to do prior authorizations and, and everything. 

Kristin: And it’s so counter to why you get into medicine in the first place, right? It takes you away from Yeah. Your doctor-patient relationship and from healing people.

It’s, you spend all your time on the phone dealing with administrative nonsense, 

Dr. Emily Silverman: that brick wall that you describe, oh man, that really resonates because I think I went through like a developmental hierarchy of understanding the problem where first it was. we’re being overworked. Um, in terms of sleep, in terms of cognitive fragmentation, in terms of having to take care of people out of context.

Like we don’t know these people. We don’t know their stories. Like there’s so much cognitive friction when someone comes into the hospital. You have to sit down and read their entire chart and figure out what their deal is and that that takes time. And so anyway, I think initially [00:31:00] I was like, oh, surely if we notify the people at the top that we need more time and we need more resources, then we will, you know, things will get better.

And then I realized that, um, actually , uh, a lot of those leaders, whether it’s a division head or department chair, like. . Like maybe they would wanna help if they could, but they can’t because they are subject to these even greater forces at the level of the C-suite and the C-suite and executives. I think I said C squeak.

C squeak, C, c squeak. Um, and then you’re like, oh, okay. So this goes way, way, way deeper. This is an issue about money and profit. Yes. And, and this is one of the things I loved about putting together the shame series, which is the healthcare workforce, I might argue, is mired in shame, which is why we are afraid to call in sick and things of that nature.

And [00:32:00] that’s so convenient for, you know, the c e o of Optum Health mm-hmm. Or whoever. Yeah. Yeah. Because then they don’t have to build in any slack into the system and so on and so forth. So, so then I started thinking a lot about like, Why don’t we unionize and, and people are residents. Mm-hmm. , uh, are starting to unionize more attending physicians.

Not as much, and that’s a whole conversation. But yeah. 

Will: I’ve been really, IM impressed by these resident, these trainees that are, that are going that route and, and realizing that, you know, they, they do have power and they should, you know, because they have a very important part in healthcare and in in medicine in general.

What, I’m curious to hear what your thoughts are about this kind of push for unionization that’s been going on around the country. 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Yeah, I think it’s great. I, I feel like house staff really don’t have much power at all. Mm-hmm. , we, um, , like I said, we’re working these crazy hours. We’re not [00:33:00] able to eat, not able to sleep, not able to go to the bathroom.

It’s built into the culture. So we’re kind of, um, conditioned to feel like we need to be superhumans or robots who don’t need any of those things. And that’s kind of the stoic physician. Mm-hmm. right. Mix 

Will: that needs, needs to go away 

Dr. Emily Silverman: for sure. And so, um, what happens then when physicians awaken themselves to the fact that it is a myth and actually we’re human and we have bodies just like our patients and we need to attend to ourselves.

Um, and, you know, you could do all the wellness committees in the world, but at the end of the day, like. You need power, power is what you need, and unions are really nothing more than a way to take all that power that’s been consolidated to the business people. And just taking back a little bit of it, you know, just, yeah.

Right. Yeah. Shifting a little bit of that power back to the workforce so that they have leverage so that, you know, because nobody’s just gonna out of the goodness of their heart, say like, actually, you can sleep now. Or like, actually, you know, we’re gonna give you a [00:34:00] break in the middle of the day so that you can rest and eat.

Like, , you need to kind of take those things by force at this point through power. And the union is just kind of the classic tried and true way to take power back from, from, you know, 

Will: the people. Yeah. Haven’t seen any other way to do it. Right. I mean, I really don’t. Right. that’s, and, and it’s, it’s not unreasonable demands either from what, from what I’ve seen.

You know, I, I try to follow it a little bit on Twitter, you know, people talking about the unionization efforts and it’s, um, all very reasonable, you know, humans trying to stay alive type of things, which, uh, is, is just a bare minimum. And so, yeah, I, you know, I don’t know if it’s, it’s gonna happen, you know, more broadly with the rest of medicine.

I find that. It hard to believe that that would really happen. Um, but again, like you said, that maybe another podcast . 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Yeah. Right. For your separate, [00:35:00] uh, labor Rights Healthcare worker, labor Rights podcast. We can talk about it on that. That’s right. 

Will: It’s a big, 

Dr. Emily Silverman: it’s hilarious. Yeah. Right.

Will: I gotta work on that part of my content as the mm-hmm. , as the labor rights part of it. Although I 

Dr. Emily Silverman: must say, and, you know, Your your work is, I think what’s so great about your work is, it’s hilarious because you do all this commentary on the culture and like the surgeons and the radiologists and the neurologists and sort of all the different phenotypes and, and make poking fun of, of that.

But some of your more recent stuff is starting to tackle these issues of, like PBMs. I, I think I spammed you like, I think I sent you like five emails in one day when you posted your pbm. Video. I, I just was beside myself. Yeah. With excitement and how you were able to educate your Twitter audience about what a PBM is and how it works, and why it’s, you know, all of the huge, disgusting amounts of money that are being pushed around and through a [00:36:00] comedic TikTok video.

I just, I was so, so happy to see that, because, oh, thank you. We don’t know, we’re not educated on these 

Will: things, and I, oh, I, I had to do a significant amount of research to put that video. That was probably the longest I’ve spent, like planning and writing out a two minute skit. And it’s because I had no idea.

I, I, I had heard something, I read something on Twitter about PBMs, like, oh, that sounds bad. And so, But it’s, it’s What is pbm? What does the, so it’s, uh, uh, pharmacy benefit managers. It’s, they’re kind of the middle, like a middleman mm-hmm. Of multiple different middlemen in medicine. Um, and so I did a video called The Middleman of Medicine or something, or in healthcare, middleman of Healthcare.

But basically they’re, they, they go between health insurance and, and pharmacies, uh, extracting money from this art, this already expensive system and driving up costs and. so many things [00:37:00] with, with these organizations. And the big problem is that they’re, they’re all vertically integrating now. So you have UnitedHealthcare, they have their own pbm, they now have their own pharmacies and they, so they can set costs, control of the control system, the whole line.

Now they’re owning hospitals, they’re owning doctors. Yeah. And, and none of that’s good. Uh, and that’s actually something that the FTC is interested in and starting to look into as like the vertical integration problem. And the 

Dr. Emily Silverman: video is hilarious. . Yeah. So yeah. 

Kristin: It like the Trojan course of 

Will: healthcare, I can’t, it was, uh, I tried my best to make PBMs funny.

Dr. Emily Silverman: Yeah. And you did. That’s not that. And that’s why I sent you five 

Will: emails. I appreciated that. I do remember getting the emails from you. Oh, you’re a big fan of the, the PBM content, so Yeah. Yeah. . All right. Well, let’s take a quick break and we will be back with Dr. Emily Silverman. [00:38:00] You know, when I was in college, my parents would send me a care package.

Every so often they had like socks and underwear and snacks and things. Yeah. It’s like a hug in a box. Well, you know what Rosk Box is doing that for people in medicine because as we all know, there’s a lot of burnout medicine. Yeah. And what could 

Kristin: be better than coming home after a long shift or a full day of classes and you’ve got that special little care package waiting for you.

And we’ve 

Will: worked with Rosk Box before. We know how great they are. And it really helps you remember why you got into this profession in the first place. 

Kristin: And it’s great because you can order it once or as a recurring monthly gift for that person 

Will: in your life. So send encouragement to the healthcare professional in your life.

Go to robox to use coupon code KK h to get 10% off every month and free shipping within the Continental us. That’s R OSC B O X If you follow and tag both at Rosk Box and at Human Content Pods, you’ll be entered to win one free [00:39:00] March Rosk box.

All right, we are back with Dr. Silverman. So Emily, we’re going to, uh, uh, do something. Yeah, I was thinking about how, what you’re, you’re so good at in crafting and, and, and kind of guiding stories and, and coaching people trying to, you know, teach them how to tell an effective story. Uh, and I’m not gonna pretend like I’m really good at like, storytelling or anything, but I do have a story from my, my training.

Uh, and I thought I, you would, you could help, you could, uh, guess part of my story. So this is, I’m calling this guess my own adventure. Okay. Kind of like, uh, choose your own adventure, except I’m gonna come to certain points where I want you to try to guess like where the story goes. Okay. And so try this out.

I don’t know. I’ve never done this, this one before. And so let’s, uh, let’s give it a shot. So I’m gonna set up the location for this story. This was during my intern year. I did it, I was in Chicago at a small [00:40:00] community hospital. I was doing a transitional year, uh, which honestly very low key year. Like it’s, it’s nice for a future ophthalmologist to be able to do a year like this, but my ICU rotation, that was like the one rotation that just struck fear into all of our hearts.

Right. And I just happened to start on that rotation at the beginning of my intern year. So already a little bit terrified. Uh, and so this was a 30 bed icu and again, small community hospital. So the only backup I had was a, was a fellow somewhere, , don’t know where they were. Mm-hmm. in the hospital maybe?

Yeah. Not exactly the most present individual. Um, I also had this strange. Uh, remote monitoring thing that was going on. So like, I’d walk into a room [00:41:00] and sometimes there would be like the voice of God coming down and like telling me what to do. And I had an actual attending by phone. All right. So I had to call an attending with each, um, with each admission that, cuz I was brand new.

So this is my fourth night as an intern. Like, I’d been a, I’ve been a doctor for like four days. Okay? Okay. Uh, and my shift starts, um, at 7:00 PM and, uh, at this point, this is my, actually my first night in the I C U. All right. Again, essentially by myself. All right? Am I a cool and confident or am I b losing my mind at this point?

What do you. If you had to guess one of those would describe my, say mental state at that point. I would say 

Dr. Emily Silverman: maybe B. Right? Like you’re, I was, I was, was an ophthalmologist in the icu. Much B. 

Will: Yes, yes. I was a future ophthalmologist in the icu. Yeah. That sums it up perfectly. Yeah. All right. And so everything’s going okay, [00:42:00] like the patients are kind of tucked in, but then around midnight I get my first big admission.

I don’t even remember exactly what the patient was going on. We’ll say cardiac arrest for lack of a better diagnosis. Very critically ill young person. Kim came in, uh, and um, as soon as I get word that the patient’s coming in and they actually roll the patient into the I C U, what is the first thing I do?

My first action when the patient hit the 

Dr. Emily Silverman: floor, you say, I have to go to the bathroom. . 

Will: Good guess. No, I crawled out from underneath the desk in the work. I crawled out from underneath the desk. I was That’s where you were napping? Where I was napping. That’s right. Have you ever had, how impressed do you fit under a desk?

Uh, it was, it was one of those long desks that, you know, had multiple works stations. So where was, I wanted to ask you where, what’s the strangest place you’ve ever taken a nap in the hospital? 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Oh, uh, at San Francisco General Hospital, there’s a resident room where the lights are just really bright. No matter what time of day, there’s no windows and there’s just [00:43:00] desks with computers.

And I would often like sit at the computer typing notes and then feel tired, and then just literally put my hand on the desk and just go like this and just fall, like sitting in, up in my chair, just fall asleep with my face and my elbow. Sounds 

Will: relaxing. Yeah, 

Dr. Emily Silverman: that’s great. Oh yeah. Great. For my neck. Yeah.


Will: Mm-hmm. . So I had been, I had, I got like a 20 minute nap and I, so I crawl out from underneath my, in my little, my little, you know, cave that I had created for myself and I go and evaluate. That’s like your George Costanza, right? Yeah, exactly. Ooh, that’s a good Seinfeld reference. That’s a good Seinfeld reference.

I like that one. Mm-hmm. Um, and I go evaluate the patient and I, I immediately, like, it’s, it’s, it’s like a disaster, right? This is a very ill person. Lots of stuff going on, lots of patient nurses flying all over the place. Uh, and so I, I have to call the attending with every admission, so I call the attending.

And, um, would you, would you guess, um, I want you to tell me what you [00:44:00] think my patient presentation was like. Was it a concise and well organized, or was it b an incomprehensible word salad? Hmm. 

Dr. Emily Silverman: I’m gonna guess the incomprehensible. Or it’s salad. That’s 

Will: correct. That’s ab. Yes. Yes. I don’t even know. 

Dr. Emily Silverman: This is a pretty easy exercise.

There were, there were. 

Will: No, it’s gonna get a little bit tougher here. Okay. Okay. Uh, uh, yes, it was, uh, I, um, I’m surprised anybody could understand anything coming outta my mouth in that moment because my brain was just going haywire. And he tell, what he does is he tells me, he is like, calm down. All right.

Says, this is what we’re gonna do. I want you to start ECMO protocol. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. It was that, it was that serious of a thing, right? Hmm. Uh, and this is all over the phone. Uh, can you go ahead and, because you’re gonna do a better job of it than I am. Probably. Could you just give like a two sentence, uh, let’s just tell listeners what ECMO is.

Dr. Emily Silverman: Yeah. So if your heart and [00:45:00] lungs aren’t working, the machine does the work of both of those organs for you. 

Will: Yeah, so it’s like, like an external and there’s like it’s, there’s a lot that goes into it, right? It’s this external, yeah. 

Kristin: Doesn’t it like take your blood out of you and then put it back in or 

Dr. Emily Silverman: something?

Yeah. It’s like mega life support. Yeah. It’s like, I guess if you had that and dialysis, that would probably be like the, the highest level life support that exists in modern technology. Heart, lung, and kidney. That would be all three replaced. We don’t have one for liver maybe someday. 

Will: Yeah. Or eyes. We don’t have one for eyes or the spleen.

That’s less important over the spleen. They don’t care about the spleen. Okay, so, so yes, I’m this fourth, you know, fourth day intern and I get my first big admission and the attending tells me over the phone, you need to start ECMO protocol. What is the next thing that I do? . 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Well it’s funny cuz in my mind I’m imagining you like turning to the side like in a cartoon and there’s just a giant lever on the wall that says activate [00:46:00] ECMO protocol.

And you just like, Flip the switch , 

Will: that would’ve been 

Dr. Emily Silverman: great. But I’m guessing that wasn’t available to you, 

Will: was not the, the, the ECMO lever was not, had not been invented at that point, . 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Mm. So in that case, you probably had to call someone. Right? There must have been you number called out for your mommy. 

Will: I, another good guess.

No, I went into the workroom and I Googled what is ecmo . Hmm mm-hmm. . 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Okay. Good start. Mm-hmm. good start. It’s 

Will: right. You gotta start with the basics. Yeah. Uh, right. And, um, and so I, I eventually figure out what to order. And basically what I did was I sat there in the workroom and I just, I told the nurses that were, you know, everybody that was running around the pharmacists, all these people, I was like, please, Tell me what to order and I’ll just, I’ll sit here and let’s, let’s work on this together.

And it, and we did it. We 

Dr. Emily Silverman: got through it. Mm-hmm. The nurses saved [00:47:00] your ass. That’s classic. That’s 

Will: very classic, right? Yeah. It’s like so predictable. Like first week intern, never been in this situation before. And 

Kristin: so I was kind of Right. That’s sort of the, the medical system equivalent of calling 

Dr. Emily Silverman: your mommy


Will: That’s such a point. We, we can all use a little help from time to time. Yes. Uh, and then the 

Kristin: nurses are where you gotta go. 

Will: And so, so that, but that’s not quite the end of the story, uh, because the rest of the night, you know, I got no sleep. And it was one of those situations where like, even if something’s not going on, you’re just terrified of like, of laying down, uh, because you know something’s gonna happen, right?

Mm-hmm. , like, you have that like the deep seated like, oh my God, if I, if I sleep, somebody’s gonna die. Yes. Like that’s, that’s kind of what you’re, what you’re thinking. And even 

Dr. Emily Silverman: if you went to bed and didn’t get any pages for like six hours, you don’t know that you could get a page. And so this, the quality of the sleep is the, is fraught with that anticipatory anxiety.

It’s not good [00:48:00] sleep. Right. And I apologize, I think, uh, my baby’s just being really loud and is like slamming on the door. You know. 

Will: That’s okay. Hope likes the podcast. Is is, yeah. Is is she a fan? 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Is she wedding to that age? You know, I was in the bathroom the other day and the bathroom door is like frosted and I just saw her like two hands on the frosted glass, like the film psycho, like she’s just trying.

I’m like, please, just a moment in the bathroom alone. Yeah. And I guess she’s, 

Kristin: has she done the thing yet where she wants to climb onto your lap as you are using the restroom? That’s something to look 

Will: forward to. I think. Just don’t let ’em in. Right. Don’t Easier than 

Dr. Emily Silverman: down many dilemmas. So she, she wants to be here, but we’ll keep the door closed, so don’t worry.


Will: fine. No problem. Um, and so anyway, so to wrap it up, uh, and this I, I’ll ask one more thing, uh, for you to try to, to tell me is, um, so a horrible. So I, no sleep, you know, just, I’m constantly ordering things and several more admissions are coming in. Just the [00:49:00] worst night, you’re questioning my decision to become a doctor that kind of night.

Uh, and in the morning I am, it’s my job to be there for rounds. Yeah. And then I get to go home, right? Mm-hmm. . So the, and as far as just being like a level of exhaustion, there’s something that I think is, um, is evil about making someone work all night and then participate in rounds the next day. Yeah.

Which in the ICU can be three or four 

Dr. Emily Silverman: hours. It’s a performance. 

Will: It’s um, it’s a, you gotta be on, you gotta mm-hmm. , you gotta have all your ducks in a row. Organization. Yep. All that stuff. And so I. So tired. I’ve been up for, you know, uh, many hours at that point. And it just so happened there was a new attending for the, for the, uh, that was starting that week.

So the attending was fresh, ready to go. It was also the meanest I [00:50:00] c u attending in the hospital had a reputation. Yep. So here’s my last question for you. What do you think he yelled at me for ? Because, you know, I got yelled at. What 

Dr. Emily Silverman: didn’t he yell at you for . I mean, all right, let’s, let’s see. , um, 

Will: for, because was, I was trying really hard too.

Like, I was like, I was really, I I was so tired. Like this is the beginning of my, my intern year, so I was like really trying really hard. But there’s one thing I just, I forgot to do 

Dr. Emily Silverman: one thing. You forgot to do that. That pissed off Dr. Mc. 

Will: That pissed off. Dr. Mc. I like that. 

Dr. Emily Silverman: You’re never gonna get it. Did you forget to give an assessment and plan?

Will: No, it may not have been a good one, but I gave one. Okay. I presented, I presented my patients. Here’s what I forgot to do. I forgot to calculate Winter’s formula. 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Oh my goodness. Okay. 

Will: I have never been chewed out so hard in training then. So just [00:51:00] to let everyone know, I don’t even know what Winter’s formula is anymore, but I think it has something to do with acid base.

Right. Well, I was gonna 

Dr. Emily Silverman: ask, do you think you needed to calculate it? And it was actually, you told me, I don’t know, a official piece of data that was missing from the equation? Or was it more of like, you need to calculate it because that’s what we do? That’s, that’s an interesting question. I think that’s 

Will: probably what it was.

Yeah. Uh, but it, it, it’s one of those things that stuck, that has just stuck with me to the point where now I’m six, seven years into being an ophthalmologist. In no way, shape or form do I ever need to know winter’s formula. Right. And I don’t know what Winter’s formula is, but I do remember that it exists because of 

Dr. Emily Silverman: that guy.

And every night before bed you turn on the lamp at your desk and hunch over the textbook and review it. So that 

Kristin: spurs winter’s formula a fond goodnight, but 

Will: Exactly. And I, I, I remember the moment too, just in front [00:52:00] of everyone in the ICU patience, you know, just the guy was just going off on me. Mm-hmm.

And it’s like, and, and, and what you, what you were saying to start this out is those experiences that just, that wear you 

Dr. Emily Silverman: down down. Yeah. That’s public shaming. That’s, I mean, that’s the public shaming. Yeah, 

Will: exactly. That’s what it was. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, and so I appreciate you helping me with my adventure and for sharing my misery.

My God. Thank you. It was, it was, . That was a, a, a moment that I’ll think I’ll ever forget. Mm-hmm. . And now we have it recorded for posterity purposes. 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Yeah. I, I don’t know if the patient survived. I hope they did, but, uh, the good news is the patient did survive. You, you also survived. So I, we all thank God for that.

Will: We all survived. And sometimes you have nights in the hospital, and that is the ultimate goal, is that everyone survives. Yeah. And if you accomplish that, then you have done a good job for everyone listening similar to 

Kristin: parenting, really? Mm-hmm. . [00:53:00] 

Will: Yeah, 

Dr. Emily Silverman: that’s true. . Yeah. The sleep deprivation, the chronic, some days that’s, 

Kristin: yeah.

The, the most success you could wish for. Yeah. 

Will: How, how, how old are is your little one? 

Dr. Emily Silverman: One. She just 

Will: passed one. Just passed one. Okay. Did you ever have word finding difficulties when. Like early on in the 

Kristin: depths of the sleep deprivation. 

Dr. Emily Silverman: Yeah, I think there were definitely moments where I, there are moments I just don’t remember , right?

Yeah. Like the first six weeks I had a really gnarly, uh, induction followed by four hours of pushing, followed by forceps, followed by a C-section. Um, so I just pretty much don’t remember for the whole day you got everything experience. So I just, yeah. Don’t remember much about those weeks afterward. Uh, I think I just had, yeah, like total, total amnesia.

Maybe it was that. I hope. I hope now 

Will: you’re too. I hope now you’re well rested and at least getting 

Dr. Emily Silverman: more rest these days. I am. I’m much better now. . [00:54:00] 

Will: Well, um, let’s, uh, take a quick break and we’re gonna come back and do one more thing. Um, Emily, we’re gonna have you stick around for some, um, fan medical stories that were sent in to us.

Awesome. And we’ll react to those. So I’ll be right back.

All right. Let’s take a look at some of our favorite medical stories that were sent in by you, the listeners. And we have Dr. Silverman here to, uh, react to these with us. So our first story comes from Susan. Susan says, I was caring for a post-op patient who had an epidural in for pain relief anesthesia.

Came up to check on the patient and I noticed his badge and the name it, um, that it said was Dr. Doolittle. I asked him what strings he pulled to get the hospital to make him a joke badge. . Luckily he had a good sense of humor and showed me his driver’s license, and sure enough, that was his real name. I know.

Oh my goodness. He had a good laugh over my faux paw. . , [00:55:00] I mean 

Kristin: that, he must get that all the time. 

Will: Yeah, probably. He probably loved it, honestly. That’s great. Um, there’s so, so many things happen like that in medicine. Like you just kind of put your foot in your mouth every so often and because you’re, you’re interact, you have so many different interactions with different people who have, you know, patients and other people, other medical professionals, like, you know, I feel like that happens all the time.

You just trying to, trying to create a bond with someone and you just say the wrong thing. . That was a good one. Okay. All right. So fan story number two. This is from Callen, Caitlin. Hope I said that right. Um, this is a pharmacy related story, so I was working until close, um, close to one at night at a. Sorry, I was working until close one night.

at a small independent pharmacy in a relatively low socioeconomic area. Many times patients walk up to our drive-through without a car to pick up meds. This one gentleman walked up to our drive-through and asked, uh, where’s your menu? And one of the [00:56:00] staff answered the guy and asked him to repeat what he said.

The man said, well, you’re a drive-through. Where’s your food menu? And the staff said, sir, this is a pharmacy . We sell medicine. And the man’s eyes grew big. And he said, oh. And he walked off like nothing had happened to this day. We wish we had sold him a. Coke or if I could do cheeseburger 

Dr. Emily Silverman: first. , 

Will: or some snacks from the break room.

Kristin: I mean, it happened to the best, best . 

Will: That’s right. Yeah. That’s easy to get confused. Walgreens, that could be anything. I don’t know. . Uh, so thank you, uh, to Susan and Callen for those stories. You can send us yours knock, knock Emily, Dr. Silverman, thank you so much for joining us. Uh, it’s really, oh my goodness.

It’s been a pleasure to, to finally get to talk with you and, and, uh, it’s been great. Yeah. Keep doing what you’re 

Kristin: doing. I think it’s really badly needed right now. Oh, 

Will: absolutely. It’s, it’s, you know, it’s, You look at [00:57:00] social media, especially in the medical sphere, you know, all the, you know, doctors and other medical professionals getting on social media.

The, the, the content that really resonates with people is, is really wrapped up in storytelling. And that goes for my content as well. And so, um, I appreciate you, you know, cultivating that. And I, I do think that’s really important work. So tell, tell people you know, what, what’s next? What’s your, where people can find you all that good.

Dr. Emily Silverman: Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. If you wanna learn more about the work I do, you can go to the Uh, we just released at the end of last year, our 10 part audio documentary series on the topic of shame and medicine, which is why your story about that. attending, uh, shaming you publicly. Um, you know, we received on a serious note, we received a lot of stories like that.

And so that’s some of what we’re trying to highlight. Shame and Medicine series, we have a whole episode on shame and learning and shame being kind of weaponized and [00:58:00] used as pedagogy in the hospital, but we also have a ton of other, uh, different themes and topics. Um, so check that out. We’re, we’re really.

Please, uh, that that series has been well received by our community, are receiving a lot of messages from people about it and just how it strikes a chord. And we’ll be presenting that at South by Southwest this March in Austin. Awesome. That’s awesome. So we’re excited about that. And then, right now we’re also working on a series called Post Row America, which documents how the Dobbs decision, uh, has impacted healthcare workers.

And so, you know, now what we can and can’t do, and sort of the emotional ramifications of that for people. So we’re working on that. And then we have a live show in Minneapolis. We’re coming to the Midwest. That’s on April 22nd. And that’ll be produced in collaboration with the Center for the Art of Medicine at the University of Minnesota.

Awesome. Um, and then hoping to do more shows, looking at maybe a show in New York this fall. So yeah, just visit our website and if you wanna be kept abreast of Yeah. [00:59:00] Uh, all these developments, just join our newsletter and you’ll, you’ll get all the Dets And what’s your website? It’s the

Alright. Uh, the Shame and Medicine series grew so much that it has its own website, but, uh, which is the nocturnists dash, I actually don’t wanna say it wrong, just, it’s, 

Will: it’s the Dot org. I, 

Dr. Emily Silverman: yeah. Yeah, yeah. , but you can get to it through the main website. So, um, that one has its own website.

But yeah, thank you so much for having me and to the audience. It’s so great to be connected with all of you and, um, gosh, keep doing what you’re doing with the comedy. I, I keep fantasizing about you like, Doing what? I don’t know. I, I feel like there’s just so much potential in what you 

Will: do, and I’m, I’m always open for ideas, so 

Dr. Emily Silverman: you, well, I always email you, I, I always send you these crazy emails that are like, every 

Will: now and I get an email from 

Dr. Emily Silverman: you go on SNL or

Crazy, crazy things like that. But, um, 

Kristin: sure. 

Will: We’ll just watch. I’ll just, I’ll just ask them real quick. Yeah, yeah. 

Dr. Emily Silverman: No, it’s, yeah, exactly. Just give them a call. You [01:00:00] probably called their number. Um, but what you do it, it just captures the spirit of like medical culture, all it’s good and all it’s bad and everything in between.

I feel like your work highlights and, and we just need laughter so much right now. So, um, thanks for the work that you 

Will: do as well, both of you. Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure. Thanks for being here.

Well, thank you to, uh, Dr. Emily Silverman for joining us. That was a good conversation. That’s a lot of fun. Yeah. It’s, um, I would love to be better at storytelling. I think we all are. I would love for you to be better at it too. It’s, I I, sometimes my stories are a little bit long-winded, but there, like, there is an art to it.

There is. Absolutely. Yes. Um, and learning how to tell a good story, I think is a skill that don’t necessarily have to have, but if you wanna make friends, that was a long way. 

Kristin: Yeah. I think, I think helpful. It’s a very basic, [01:01:00] like, human thing that we are all attracted to is stories. So I think that the, it’s one of those like party tricks, you know?

Like being a good dancer. Yeah. Being a good storyteller. Right. It attracts people to you. 

Will: I’m trying to, I was trying to remember one of the stories, earliest stories you ever told me. Um, Maybe the, the, the, maybe about around the time that you, uh, you were a lead singer in a punk band, . Well, we don’t need to, we’ll save that for another time.

Tell that story. All right. So, uh, thank you all for sending in your stories to us. We’re not gonna leave that little cliffhanger there, . Uh, do you have any stories to share? We’d love to hear ’em. Uh, let us know, uh, also what you thought about the podcast today. You know, tell us what you like, what you don’t like, what we could do better.

We’d love to hear it. Uh, and there’s lots of ways to hit us up. So you can email us, knock knock high human You can visit us in our social media accounts. That’s right. YouTube, Twitter, TikTok. Uh, we’re not on Instagram. Well, I’m 

Kristin: on Instagram. [01:02:00] 

Will: Kind of. You’re kind of on Instagram. Instagram. I’m, I’m on there.

I’m not. And there’s people that have my name on Instagram that Alyssa, a fan account. They’re just be careful out there on Instagram. Uh, you could also hang out with us in our Human Content Podcast Family on Instagram and TikTok at Human Content Pods. Thanks to all the great listeners and all the people leaving wonderful feedback and awesome reviews for us.

If you subscribe and comment on your favorite podcasting app or on YouTube, we can give you a shout out. So we have, um, Eric B 12 on Apple said This podcast is a masterclass for those delivering healthcare and medicine as well as those who need it. That would be all of us. Will Kristen and their guests explore what it means to be a doctor, someone related to anyone in healthcare, people working in the field, or those loved ones needing care again, which is everyone.

The balance between Will and Kristen is exquisite. Exquisite. Aw, that’s so nice. Thank you. Uh, all laypeople [01:03:00] patients should be as engaged and curious as Kristen. All doctors should be genuine and formative and engaged as will and his guests. This is the best of medicine and it’s fun to listen to. Thank you.


Kristin: is so, that’s very nice. That’s a very kind 

Will: review. Yes. We appreciate that so much. Uh, we also have full episodes on YouTube every week at D Glock, flecking. Lots of cool perks on our Patreon too. You can join our Patreon. You know, we’re there, we’re hanging out, we’re interacting, uh, bonus episodes where we react to medical shows and, and movies.

We did like mash. Yeah. And Monty Python and House, the TV show. It’s one of my favorites. I love that show. I think you just like saying House, house House, md uh, hang out with, uh, you know, other members of the Nanka community. Uh, early ad free episode, access, interactive q and a livestream events, a lot more coming. and flein, or go to Glock and Speaking of Patreon, community Perks, there’s things you get when you [01:04:00] join our Patreon. So, new member, shout out. We got Gracie l Marie, r Alyssa a, Linda b Laurie C and Joshua G. Thank you all. Also, as always, shout out to the Jonathans Patrick, Lucia, C Sharon, s Omer, Edward, k Abby, H Stephen G Ros Box, Jonathan f Marian, W Mr.

Caitlin Crea, l Becky, and Dr. J Jonathan’s. I give you all a, a podcast head nod. You’re only gonna see that on YouTube. I’m sorry. Uh, Patreon Roulette. So this is where we, uh, people who are emergency physicians on our Patreon. Uh, which one is one of the levels. We will just give a random shoutout. So let’s, do you wanna do the general roll or should I do it?

Oh, you, you go right ahead. I guess I, maybe I’m better at it. Okay. Shout out to Joyce o for being a Patreon. I just said that really loud. A patron. A patron for being a [01:05:00] patron. She, she is not 

Kristin: Patreon. 

Will: Thank you. Thank you Joyce o And thank you all for listening. We are your host, will and Kristen Flannery, also known as the Glock fls.

Special thanks to our guests today, Dr. Emily Silverman. Our executive producers are Will Flannery, Kristen Flannery, Aron Korney, Rob Goldman, and Shahnti Brooke. Our editor and engineer is Jason Porto. Our music is by Omer Ben-Zvi. To learn about our knock-knock high. Program. I’m getting better at that note, I got it.

Hi, program disclaimer and ethics policy submission verification, licensing terms and HIPAA release terms. You can go to clock and or reach out to us, knock dot high with any questions, concerns, or fun medical jokes. Knock knock High is a human content production[01:06:00]