Transcript
[music]: [00:00:00] Knock, knock, hi!
Will: Knock, knock, hi!
Hello everybody, welcome to Knock, Knock, Hi! with the Glockenfleckens. I am Will Flannery, also known as Dr. Glockenflecka.
Kristin: I am Kristen Flannery, also known as Lady Glockenflecken.
Will: Welcome to our episode today where we talk to a neurosurgeon.
Kristin: That’s right. Knock, knock, hi! It’s a very nice one.
Will: Oh, very nice.
Like, it’s, it’s one, I love, so we’re talking to Dr. Betsy Grunch, board certified neurosurgeon, also lady spine doc, which I had trouble putting those three words together so many times during the episode for some reason. I was going like, lady neuro, lady I knew Lady was in it, and then, I don’t know, I don’t know, I was, I was struggling today, but it’s Lady.
Yeah, your
Kristin: ophthalmologist was really showing.
Will: At Lady’s Spine Doc, and, uh, I love her content, it’s great stuff, um, and had a wide ranging [00:01:00] conversation with her, uh, but it does. Truth be told, neurosurgeons are still, they, they’re a bit intimidating to me.
Kristin: Yeah, they scare you.
Will: I am, I am a bit, I’m a tiny bit scared.
She’s very nice.
Kristin: But just
Will: like the thought of like talking to a neurosurgeon, I’ve had to do that one time in like the past five years. And I still remember it. I was like, Oh, why am I so nervous to talk to this person who’s like, we’re both like attending physicians and professionals and like, why am I, why do I feel like I’m like a med student again?
Yeah. I don’t know.
Kristin: I don’t know either. I’ve talked to neurosurgeons many times because I needed to have a neurosurgeon. And they were all delightful, everybody that I talked
Will: to. Again, I feel like I need to have a disclaimer in all of my videos. Yes. It’s like, this is not a real neurosurgeon in this video.
What
Kristin: happened to you? This is a
Will: caricature of neurosurgeons. There are elements of truth in this neurosurgeon’s [00:02:00] personality. Namely, yes, if they could, they would just live at the hospital in the operating room. But, Not totally true, although we do talk a lot about how she’s always on call.
Kristin: Yes, but also work hour restrictions and family life as a neurosurgeon.
Will: You can still have a life with anything in medicine. Sometimes it’s just a little bit harder. Easier
Kristin: than others. Yeah,
Will: exactly. Um, but it’s, uh, it’s fun, fun, fun to talk to her. I love what she does. I just, I love, I definitely want to support all like, you know, professional, like, Um, uh, accurate voices in medicine on social media, right?
We need to be like
Kristin: providing like education to people and good role models,
Will: good role models. Absolutely said it. Couldn’t have said it better myself. I also
Kristin: really love her, um, Particular just brand of, I don’t know, humor or maybe it’s just her personality, you know, like she’s super sharp and dry and a little sassy, which [00:03:00] really that’s an okay in my book.
In my
Will: opinion, the drier the sense of humor, the better. I love it. Love it so much. Just bone dry. The, uh, um, Nathan Fielder. Yeah,
Kristin: except he takes it so far that I get uncomfortable, but yes.
Will: All right, let’s get to it. Here is Dr. Betsy Grunch.
Today’s episode is brought to you by the DAX Copilot from Microsoft. DAX Copilot is your AI assistant for automating clinical documentation and workflows, helping you to be more efficient and reduce the administrative burden that causes us to feel overwhelmed and burnt out. To learn more about how Dax Copilot can help reduce burnout and restore the joy of practicing medicine, stick around after the episode or visit aka.
ms slash knock knock high. That’s aka. ms slash knock knock high.[00:04:00]
All right, we are here with Dr. Betsy Grinch. Dr. Grinch, thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Thanks for having me. Super excited.
Will: Yeah, I’m a, I’m a big fan of yours. In fact, I was just looking at your, your TikTok account and, um, uh, I saw a video that was like the end of your 72 hour call shift, and then I saw another video that you posted like maybe five hours ago about how you are post call today.
So my question, are you ever not? Post call? Like
Kristin: when she’s on call. Well,
Will: when you’re on call, I guess there’s always on call or post call, but, but do you ever have a break?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Uh, I think it’s like a perpetual thing. So when you’re post call, then you’re on call and it just cycles.
Will: It never ends. It’s, but honestly, how often, like, what’s your call schedule like?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: So I’m one in five, so we have [00:05:00] five neurosurgeons at our hospital. And, uh, so I’m always on call like once a week, basically, and then one in five weekends. So it’s not terrible. It used to be one in three, it’s been as good as one in seven at one point in a magical lifetime. That seems like an eternity ago, but.
We’re here.
Will: One in three. Was that, was that residency or even post training?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Oh, no, that was here. That was here. Residency, I think it was just continuous. Right. Right.
Will: Well, I mean, should we, should we compare? Cause I’m actually just coming to the end of my call. If you would
Kristin: like, I will punch him in the face.
No. Once you
Dr. Betsy Grunch: hear this. Just a little. Just on your behalf. Any eye emergencies? No.
Will: Uh, you know, I did, I went in to see two patients. Yeah,
Kristin: you had to go to the hospital.
Will: I did. I went to the hospital and, um, uh, maybe take, took a couple of photos with some people while I was there. It happens. It [00:06:00] happens. Barf.
Uh, but, uh, I didn’t have no emergency surgeries. I just so, yeah, it’s, uh, I, I had to take a couple of other phone calls as well from home. It happened.
[music]: That was hard for you.
Will: Sometimes could be a challenge. Uh, no. How many emergency surgeries did you have to do on your last call shift?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Oh Lord. So I’ve been on call since Friday and I did emergency cases Saturday, Sunday, and then actually I was supposed to be in the office today and ended up doing two emergency cases this morning.
So I had to cancel my entire clinic and. Here I am. So, yeah. Wow. Well, I feel honored. We made the cut. I got done just in time to be here with you guys.
Will: Well, we definitely appreciate it. And, uh, let’s start with your, your social media presence, because I love what you do on, on Tik TOK in particular. That’s when I, where I see all your stuff.
[00:07:00] Um, Lady Spine Doc. Yeah. So tell us the origin of this.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: So the origin of the kind of social media presence began, um, around the pandemic. So I started becoming obviously more bored because as a, as a neurosurgeon, I’m never really bored. Um, but we, we got in this situation where we couldn’t operate. And so there was an extreme exuberant amount of time that I had to peruse social media and I, I’ve always liked social media.
I’ve always used it. Never really. Okay. Um, used it professionally or didn’t know in some capacity and actually, believe it or not, um, you were kind of an inspiration because I just loved your funny content. It kind of got me through good, you know, good days, bad days, and some other creators. And I thought.
I can do this too. So I, me and my PA made a few reels and I came home one day, um, uh, and, and made a reel about being a female surgeon, being a female neurosurgeon. And I [00:08:00] was posting it. I posted it in Tik TOK to post to Instagram just so I could download it. And I had like two Tik TOK followers or something like that.
My mom and my husband. And, uh, And then I went to bed, I woke up and the video had like several hundred thousand views and I was just like, kind of taken back because I didn’t even know that, you know, it could do that, you know, on Instagram, it just went to your follower, so I didn’t realize that people could see your content.
So it was kind of like. Like overwhelmed with the feedback. I got some negative, some positive, um, but it was just, uh, you know how it goes. So it was a, it was a really cool, um, it was a, it was a cool thing for me. I thought I could reach a lot of people. And so I started, you know, thinking about doing more stuff online just because, uh, of that video really just kind of inspired me and, and mostly because of people that were.
Wanting to know questions about being a female surgeon, about, you know, going into neurosurgery. And so I [00:09:00] started, um, take, I took it as a challenge. So I decided I would post once a day for 30 days, I’m sorry, for three months, because that’s what I read according to my research that you could grow. So I did that.
And like in three months, I had a hundred thousand followers. And I, I, here we are, that’s such a physician,
Will: that’s such a physician approach to social media. I did my research. I figured out the
Dr. Betsy Grunch: prescription. Once a day, an apple a day. Well, it
Will: was like, that was, that was a time. I mean, that’s when I got started on TikTok as well.
Right. And, and I’m sure like as a surgeon, you’re, you know, being told you can’t operate. It’s like maybe the worst thing that can happen to you in
Dr. Betsy Grunch: life.
Will: And so, yeah, to, to fill that time with something and, and, um, so I’m right there with you. It was, uh, I don’t think I was diligent enough to post every day for like three months.
That’s, that’s impressive. That’s good for you.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Well, [00:10:00] well, you know, you know how, uh, type A personalities are. I don’t, uh,
Will: But the, and the algorithm though of TikTok is what really like propelled, you know, like you’re talking about, you just came back and had all these views that you don’t get on other social media platforms, which is part of the reason why.
I think TikTok blew up right around that time. Um, but let’s talk about, so tell me about, about just being a, a woman neurosurgeon and because that’s, uh, as you mentioned was, was initially part of your platform and what you talked a lot about, um, neurosurgery, I think more so than other specialties is probably even more male dominated.
I don’t know the numbers. Do you know, like what, I’m sure you can tell me
Dr. Betsy Grunch: what percentage there’s 243 board certified female neurosurgeon, the United States. It’s not many of us. That’s it. There’s, that’s about, that’s about 9%. Um, so, okay, so not many. And residency currently there’s about 20%. So hopefully over time those numbers will [00:11:00] change as it cycles through.
Yeah. But, um, you know, it’s still nowhere near what, uh, the incoming medical schools, over 50% female. So there are just certain fields like neurosurgery, orthopedics, urology, those kinds of specialties where it’s just extremely, uh, male dominated. And, um, there’d be a whole nother discussion as to why that is, but yeah.
Will: I’m sure. But what is, were there any. Any example of things in your training? Like where, where has this manifest as far as like people expecting, always expecting a male neurosurgeon, because I’m sure you’ve probably felt that. I mean, that probably led to your name as Lady Spine Doc on social media, right?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Yeah. I mean, you know, the, the main reason why I came up with that name, I was trying to come up with something that kind of set me apart because I followed other accounts and You know, what I, what I knew about content creators is like, I can always remember their last name. I don’t know who [00:12:00] that doctor is that I follow, but I knew that they were like, you know, a plastic surgeon or a, or a pediatric.
So I wanted to come up with something that kind of set me apart. So, uh, I had this experience just to kind of describe how I came up with my name. I had this experience early on when I first came out of practice and I went to go talk to this patient’s family about this big, long surgery that I did, this Complete spine reconstruction and spent five hours, you know, fixing this man’s spine.
I came out to talk to family, sat down, explained the whole procedure, what I did, the recovery, how well it went. And at the end of the conversation, he looked at me and he was like, Okay. Well, when’s the surgeon going to come and talk to us? And I was just like, okay, well, um, she’s actually me. Uh, and he looked at me and he was like a lady back doctor.
Good for you. And it was just like, It was, it was so condescending, but yeah, is this
Kristin: a good for you? Like a Southern [00:13:00] good for you? Like a bless your heart, bless your heart. That’s exactly what it was. And
Dr. Betsy Grunch: good for you. Good for you. And I was just kind of like, you know, pissed. You know, kind of, but also like in a, in a way, like it came from a good spot.
Like he was gentle, genuinely like proud of me. And I thought, well, I can break the stereotype if he had no idea that I could even possibly be a surgeon. Um, you know, that we’ll, we’ll, we’ll change the dynamic up here. So that, that, that whole experience is kind of perpetuated through my career, but that’s, that’s kind of one of the reasons why I came out with that name is Lady Spine Doc is because, because of that, and it’s, it just kinda, it’s just kinda stuck and that’s where we’re at.
So people, people know. It’s funny, you mentioned, like, you know, you being out on call and people wanting to take pictures. It’s kind of like that. No one knows my name. Betsy Grimes, the name is. Hey, are you Lady Spine Doc? It’s like, yep, that’s me.
Kristin: Yeah. Most people think his last name actually is [00:14:00] Glockenflecken.
Like, they’re surprised and a little disgusted when they hear his actual name. Yeah.
Will: No, no, that
Kristin: doesn’t, that doesn’t feel right. They want me to be called Dr.
Will: Glock. I mean, you’re, you’re smart and most, I’d say most physicians on social media are pretty smart about it. They have something in their name that tells people what type of doctor they are.
That’s, I think that’s one of the big mistakes I made. It’s not obvious.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: What, why, why did you come up with the name Glockenflecken? Yeah,
Will: it’s a good question. It’s, um, just the silliest word I could think of in ophthalmology. It’s, it’s an actual That was literally
Kristin: his criteria. It’s an
Will: actual ophthalmology term.
And, and so, uh, I don’t know. Could have done it differently, but It’s good. I
Dr. Betsy Grunch: like it. I like it. I thought it had something to do with Right.
Will: But you’re, uh, uh, so primarily a spine surgeon, I guess. I do. Because neurosurgery, help us out because with neurosurgery you can go in a lot of different ways. The, the.
Kristin: Spine, spine surgery.
Will: Right. The central nervous [00:15:00] system is a large thing that can, you know, brain versus spine. But there’s,
Kristin: there’s like neuro versus ortho, like you can.
Will: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You can go to spine from different, different places, right? I
Dr. Betsy Grunch: mean, you can be a spine surgeon as an orthopedic or as neuro and, um, I, I think we like to arm wrestle a little bit, you know, we, I’m not as strong as some of the ortho bros, but you know, we, we try.
I’ve been working on that, but, uh, no, um, so I am a general neurosurgeon. I do, I did a spine fellowship and spine is kind of my, I do about 95 percent spine, but I still do cranial stuff and brain subperipheral nerve stuff. So I’m technically a general practice neurosurgeon, but. Um, I, my heart is, is spine and, um, that’s mostly what I practice.
So that’s kind of, that’s how I stick with that name. Cause I, I, you know, that’s kind of my background, but it’s funny because oftentimes [00:16:00] people think that I’m a chiropractor, so that’s fine. Right.
[music]: Which is
Will: a, uh, it’s, which is a particularly dark area of Tik Tok.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Yeah. Lots
Will: of this, uh, some, you know, chiropractic.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: I try to stay out of that area because I don’t want to get down that deep dark cave, but yeah. Do you have to do
Kristin: a lot of education though? Because people are like, is that a large part of your content?
I
Will: think initially,
Dr. Betsy Grunch: no, I don’t, I don’t like to go down there cause it always gets engagement, but engagement isn’t always good. So, uh, no, I, um, yeah, I, Initially I did, I think a lot of people, but I think now I’ve kind of established my presence. Most people know, know, know that, or if they don’t, then my viewers will quickly correct them.
So we’ll just let them fight it out for me.
Will: And that’s actually a good point because you know, you start, cause you know, I have these things too that I have to debunk, you know, fairly [00:17:00] regularly. And then people start doing it for you, which is, which is great. Uh, and I guess that’s what you want, right?
Right. You want enough people out there who are willing to go to bat for. That, that perspective and that scientific perspective versus, you know, whatever the hell it’s chiropractic, whatever it is. Um, but, uh, getting back to like this ortho versus nerd, I’m kind of fascinated by these types of overlaps.
Like we don’t have a really, a lot of that in ophthalmology. Um, you go to conferences, do you go, are there, Neurospine and orthospine. Do you guys come together and, and who, um, who gets the rowdiest? Like what’s the, what is the dynamic between the two?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: So we have neurosurgery conferences and we, there are orthopedic conferences, but there are some.
spine conferences. Um, a couple of actually, um, I am, um, the chair woman of the spine section meeting at this [00:18:00] orthopedic summit that’s coming up in Vegas, uh, in a couple of months. And so I was a little nervous because it’s all orthopedic and I’ve never, you know, I’ve never really, uh, uh, chaired a orthopedic meeting.
So, uh, But yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s kind of, it’s, it’s a good space. I think we all learn from each other because we all, we train very differently and the thought process is similar, but all always, um, a little different. And it’s, it’s kind of fun to learn from, you know, from them and, and them learn from us and vice versa.
And where I trained. There was even like cases where we did them conjoined. So like ortho would put in the screws and neuro would do the decompression. And that’s very, very old school. It’s not the case anymore, but. Um, you know, that’s still the way some people practice. So it’s kind of fun kind of mixing that, but I’ll tell you the, the personalities between a neurosurgeon and orthopedic surgeon are quite vastly different.
Kristin: Do you, how, how would you rate his depictions of [00:19:00] the two?
Will: Yeah. Uh, pretty accurate, pretty
Kristin: accurate. Yeah. Are you, are
Will: you renting out space in the, in the, in the blanket warmer, uh, you know, for in between cases, you kind of hang out there.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: I need to. Yeah. I, I, it would be a much better place for me, but instead I just have my heated vest and I just go curl up in the surgeon’s lounge.
So it’s similar. Yeah.
Will: Love it. Well, um, uh, I want to talk actually, you know, let’s take a short break and we’ll come back. Cause I want to explore, um, some of this. Some of the factors you alluded to that, that lead to a male dominated field. All right, we’re back with Dr. Betsy Grinch, board certified neurosurgeon.
So let’s, I want to explore this a little bit because, um, yeah, this is a, we mentioned ortho and neuro, I mean, this is an issue probably across most surgical fields, to be [00:20:00] honest, uh, in medicine where it’s very heavily male dominated and you mentioned like we could get into some of the reasons why you think that might be the case.
Um, So, you know, enlighten us, like, tell, like, what do you think it is that is,
Kristin: um, enlighten you, I think,
Will: okay, well, I mean, us as in the audience, as in, as in the people listening, because I think this is an interesting subject and an important one.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Yeah, no, it’s, yeah, it, I always think of it as like, when you’re a student, you’re in this very, Malleable phase in your career.
And a, and a lot of people go into medical school and they have no idea what they want to do. And much like, you know, some people are like myself. I mean, I knew I wanted to do neurosurgery. There was nothing deterring me from that path. I didn’t care what came in my way. So you have those kinds of folks and they usually don’t change their mind.
And then you have, you know, people that are kind of on the fence. And I think that’s a majority. So you, [00:21:00] as a student go into an environment where you’re learning and trying to fit in and trying to figure out your ways and where you might see yourself for the rest of your life. And, you know, if you go into this environment as a woman and you go into the operating room with a bunch of neurosurgeons, male dominated, talking about guy stuff and you kind of feel like the outsider and, you know, you don’t feel like you fit in.
And so you’re, you may feel like you’re not smart enough. You’re not good enough. You’re not cool enough, or you don’t have the same commonalities to have a open discussion. And you kind of feel like I said, like kind of like the outsider. And then you may go into another, uh, rotation. Let’s just say OB GYN, heavily female dominated.
You might have a great experience. You have people just like you, attendings just like you. You have cool conversations. You lift a Taylor Swift in the operating room. This is a cool place to be. I like it. I like vaginas. [00:22:00] I want to do OB GYN now. So, you know, those kind of perceptions of students really, really sway your, uh, decisions and what career path you go into.
And I think that’s one reason why people, uh, don’t choose those, uh, uh, specialties. And then, you know, the, the obvious is that females in their. reproductive years, thinking about what they might do from a family perspective, a lifestyle perspective, when they’re going to have kids, um, going into a surgery specialty where you see that as not really quite conducive to that, um, it will also sway.
There’s multiple kinds of reasons. Your training’s very long, as you like to point out on your social medias. We don’t graduate until we’re well eligible for AARP. Uh, you know, it’s those, all those things in combination will kind of weed out those people that may be on the fence. And if they have a great experience, it may sway them, [00:23:00] but.
For the large majority of the time. I mean, as a group of neurosurgeons, as much as I like to think we’re cool, we’re not really that cool. We’re not really that fun sometimes. We do hard things. We have hard cases. We have shitty outcomes sometimes and people die and it, and it sucks. And, um, you know, so I, I think you’re doing
Will: incredibly cool things though.
Well, we’re trying to
Dr. Betsy Grunch: change the game here. We’re trying to show really how cool we are. Yeah. I’m trying to.
Kristin: Have you found that, I mean, you mentioned it from like the prospective applicants. Perspective, but have you found kind of the flip side of the coin to be true or not that, um, it’s not, not just about the woman thinking about when is, you know, I would like to have a family when is that going to happen and how that’s certainly one.
But have you also found that the like men in the field are just, or even women in the field have that expectation as well, because these are. [00:24:00] Women in their childbearing years that are playing and you know, do you have in your experience? Did you maybe not you personally, but did you encounter or see that happening at all or or no?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Absolutely. I mean I Came into medical school single residency training single so I didn’t really Know kind of what I, I knew, I kind of thought I wanted to have a family, but I went into all that with that not being a big factor in my life at the time. And so having those conversations were very easy.
Like, Hey, do you plan on having kids? I’m like, I don’t know. Um, you know, I, my passion at this moment is becoming a neurosurgeon. And so. Those things kind of helped me, but you know, I did have colleagues that were married or, you know, I did not have any female colleagues that had children or, or, or, or, uh, you know, so that, that those things do weigh into how you’re treated, um, coming into the.
To the field. [00:25:00] And, um, it’s tough. I mean, it’s, it’s definitely the elephant in the room in these cases. And I’ll say even now, like, you know, I went through training with a few women and one that, uh, had a child during residency and it’s not an easy feat, even though we think that, you know, we like to think that we’ve changed and be supportive, but God, it’s hard.
I don’t even know how I would have, I had my kids out of training. And, um, if I had. Been at that time of my life during training. I don’t know how I would have done it. I mean, it’s just, it’s just, uh, a hard process. And, uh, and, and the flip side of having a, uh, children in a family is an extremely also grueling, hard process that you need lots of support with.
So,
Kristin: yeah, that’s the thing that kind of pushes my buttons on all this is like, I mean, having a child and being a parent is. Hard and a lot of work no matter who you are and what your gender is and all of these things But I think that as a society or at least, you know, maybe it’s changing now But at least [00:26:00] as we have been coming up in our careers, it’s been almost seen as like like an an issue of ours, right, that we are going to find it hard to do these things, or we’re just gonna miss our child so much that how will we ever be able to concentrate on our work, things like this, when I think it would be so much easier if there were just some sort of structural and societal supports in place.
Like, it doesn’t have to be quite so hard, right? Like, fathers have been doing it forever because our society is based around providing them all the support they need to be able to leave the home and go do a job. And so if we had a similar setup for just all parents, I think it could be a lot easier. So I think sometimes we perpetuate this problem ourselves as people because we’re not doing those things.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Absolutely. And I think, you know, kind of the expectation of, um, a man going right back to work [00:27:00] after their wife, having a child is, is really kind of comical as well, because, you know, they’re needed at home. So I think if we had these expectations of all people. Regardless of who birthed the child and, and expectations as a society of, of time off and caregiving, it would make the, make everything, all careers, not even physicians, uh, just a much more supportive place for families and growth.
So maybe that’s a long, far fetched dream, but I think it, I think it’s something to really think about. Yeah.
Will: Something to work toward. Right. And I mean, you mentioned now the new classes of neurosurgery residents coming in are like 20%. Uh, women. And, and, uh, what do you, obviously, you know, part of that is like, you know, like you said, having students see that representation, right?
They’re coming and they’re seeing, you know, female neurosurgeon attendings and, um, do you, do you think there are any other factors that [00:28:00] are, that are contributing to this shift to more, you know, women coming up in neurosurgery?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: I think it’s, I think that, you know, the, the, the tables are turning just in general as a society of what we, uh, think women can do.
And the more, more women perpetuates more women for the reasons like what I, you know, people see me on social media and think, Hey, you know, there is women in the field, but I can do it. Or my kids, like if I ask my kids, like show them, I did this. TikTok trend about a year ago or two, you show them a picture of a person in a white coat, a woman in a white coat, and a man in a white coat and ask them who’s the doctor as they point the woman because they’re used to seeing me.
And, um, you know, it’s just what they’re trained on. So the more we kind of change that societal wave, I think the expectations of what young girls think that they can do will continue to change or even ethnicities as well. And I did some background research on this kind of societal [00:29:00] developmental change and what we would consider like to be an appropriate percentage.
Like obviously. I wouldn’t expect there to be 50 percent women that ideally, you know, that would be representation of the population, but what would be an acceptable percentage is about 30 percent because that will mean a certain percentage will kind of weigh into the, the beliefs and, and, uh, You know, you think of like how we make our decisions as a society and neurosurgical society on, on, you know, ways we treat patients and changes.
And if we have a certain percentage of people contributing to that ideas, where are we represented as, as a, as a culture? And so the, the number is around 30 percent and the journal neurosurgery did this article on how long we think it would be to be 30 percent women. And it’s projected to be like. 30 years or something.
So it’s not something that’s rapidly changing. It’s
Will: almost an entire neurosurgery residency. Yeah,
Kristin: that’s right.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: [00:30:00] Man.
Kristin: Exactly. I think what you’re doing is important not just for little girls to see themselves doing this, but for old men to see you doing this. That’s true. I mean, I’m 100 percent serious. I know you are.
People who are currently the decision makers and the culture setters and all of this, like, they need to also see, here’s this successful woman with a family who’s a neurosurgeon and has a social media, like, They need to see that we’re not these little delicate, you know, flowers that are, that can only do one thing and need to be at home.
Like, I think it’s, it’s helpful for, for men to see as well. And little boys, you know, as well as little girls.
Will: Yeah, there’s a lot of, um, a lot of toxicity in medicine that, uh, that by a little,
Dr. Betsy Grunch: a little, in
Will: fact, you, you shared with us this story from your first day of internship at Duke, uh, which just encapsulates This, um, [00:31:00] the issue just very nicely in terms of, or at least one of the issues in terms of, of the toxicity in medicine, in particular surgery, that’s been present for a long time.
Can you tell us about that?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Yes. Yeah. So, I would like to disclose that, fortunately, this, uh, uh, uh, tradition has since ceased since, um, my internship. However, um, my first day of internship, we went in and at Duke, um, uh, at the time, I had to do a general surgery internship. There wasn’t a straight to neurosurgery, so you did one year of general surgery.
Five years neurosurgery. And so this was the general surgery internship meeting, if you will. Um, and at the time Duke was a very incredibly toxic. Uh, particularly in general surgery and they had the interns wearing the short white coats, the white pants, the white shoes. So we literally looked, yes, yes. Let me tell you, it’s hard to find white pants in the [00:32:00] middle of winter.
Short white
Will: coats and white pants. Okay. And
Dr. Betsy Grunch: yep. So you, you can see kind of how it starts as day one. That’s what you’re expected to wear. Um, and you already feel like the low person on the totem pole and, and it’s designed to be that way. I mean, you’re meant to feel that way. And so we went into this meeting with the, um, residency coordinator chairman, and they give us this pamphlet and I have it somewhere in here.
I should’ve got it out, but it’s how to swim with sharks. And it’s a trifold pamphlet that you open up. And then they explain this trifold pamphlet and it is, um, Stating that you are the tadpole that is in the shark pool, i. e. the intern in with all these other physicians. And you cannot bleed because if you bleed, you will attract the sharks to then subsequently attack you.
So you’re basically told that you just need to do your work and never complain, never cry, never report anything, and you [00:33:00] just do your job and you’ll be just fine in your shark pool. This was a pamphlet? Oh, yeah, this was like
Will: written down and distributed year after year.
Kristin: Were there illustrations in this?
I
Dr. Betsy Grunch: hope so.
Will: I think that there
Dr. Betsy Grunch: were illustrations and, um, okay. And I kept it just because of how horrible it was of an experience for me. I mean, it made sense to me at the time. I’m like, yeah, I don’t want to bleed. To just fucking do it. So it’s like, all right, here we go. So anyway, I mean, and that’s, that’s how it was then.
And, um, you know, we weren’t, we weren’t treated great and we were treated as we, you know, should not have been. And, but that was the way, you know, that was the way residency was. And that’s in the, in the change in the tide of change of my residency, we did. That was at the time that ACGME started the 80 hour work week, about halfway through my residency, which was also seen as a joke [00:34:00] at the time, especially at Duke neurosurgery, like they’re doing these hours, but please don’t report them because you will get us in trouble.
So It, it was, it was a interesting six years of my life.
Will: Yeah. I can’t imagine this, but those early years of the 80 hour work week were, were followed very diligently by, by many programs, mostly those. I mean, and that’s the thing with, with, uh, with this type of toxicity. Uh, you know, you see it more in certain specialties, right?
Like, I, again, I graduated residency in 2017, so I did my whole, all my training in the work hour restriction, you know, time frame. What year did that
Dr. Betsy Grunch: go into effect? It was 2011, uh, I think. Something when the 80 hour work. So I finished my training in 2013. So in the middle of my residencies where they implemented it, but.
Will: And that just shows like, this is, we’re not talking like long ago. That’s, that’s something to take home there. Like these, this pamphlet you [00:35:00] received, this was like all like maybe 10 years ago and it’s, that was, it was even worse. Like it’s like before that. So, um, but what is it about surgery? I mean, is it the.
Is it just the stress of, of, is it, is it more of a historical thing? Like when, when surgeons were known as like the gods of the hospital, right? Like, you know, the, the most important people like where, where was that perpetuated and why was it perpetuated so much in surgery you think versus other fields?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Yeah, I think it’s just the, the nature of, of surgeons kind of, of attitude from a multitude of reasons, how they’re treated at the hospital, how they’re treated in the operating room. And ultimately, you know, people see neurosurgery as one of the highest kind of hierarchical fields in medicine and people, surgeons sometimes.
Feel like they are God, like whatever they do, people, there’s not many of us. You can’t fire us. You need us, the [00:36:00] hospital needs them so they can act and behave and treat people how they want it. And, and therefore, you know, you see, and that’s how it’s perpetuated. Like I grew up in a time and trained during a time where I saw surgeons acting like that, yelling at the scrub techs, yelling at the residents.
And then I think, well, that’s how I’m supposed to act. That’s my normal behavior. It’s okay to do that. And so then you, then you learn, it’s a learned behavior. Then you, then you act like you can then treat that. And of course, tides are changing now and, and now people don’t tolerate that type of behavior.
But you know, I’m, I’ve only been in practice for 10 years and that’s how I was trained. Initially came out like thinking that’s okay to treat people that way. And then you realize you don’t, you don’t win a lot of battles, acting like a two year old toddler, throwing a tantrum in the middle of the operating room, if you don’t get what you want, it’s much better if you just kind of act like a normal human being.
So, uh, you know,
Will: that’s right. Do you feel like I ever act like that?
Kristin: Like a two [00:37:00] year old?
Will: Yeah.
Kristin: Well, I mean, we have a skeleton behind us with a unicorn headband on. Yes.
Will: Yeah. We put this, so we have our skeleton out. Gerald, we put this out for you, uh, Dr. Grunsch. I love him.
Kristin: I love
Will: him. It’s so
Kristin: We should have turned it around though.
You can’t see the spine very well. That’s fine. I have my skeleton head
Dr. Betsy Grunch: right
Kristin: there.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Yeah. That’s
Will: good.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: And brain. Right.
Will: So. It’s, uh, I, I do feel like, like you mentioned, it’s the tide is starting to turn and I honestly credit social media with some of that, you know, I, I think that, um, allowing different opinions about how, about toxicity in medicine and how people should be treated within the healthcare field, talk, talking about moral injury and burnout and, and all of these topics being so public, I feel like as, as just put gas on the fire of change.
To, to make medicine a less toxic place. But I mean, we’re [00:38:00] not far removed from giving out pamphlets of, we’re saying don’t bleed because the sharks will eat you. And so I think we still have a long way to go.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Yeah, I agree with that a hundred percent. And I think just me being, you know, a content creator and being cognizant and getting feedback from people on stuff I post and it’s really changed me as a person for the better too, and a better physician, a better, Uh, human, just because I can see other sides of the story and maybe something that I put out there may be interpreted a certain way that I had no idea would really be interpreted that way or watching other, you know, nurses or other people in the hospital and their content and how they’re treated makes me more aware.
Uh, things that we put our, you know, our, our, our people in health care through. And so I do agree with you. I think social media is good because it allows us to amplify things that are acceptable and not acceptable and allows us to change and learn and grow. And those people that are more willing to be.
And, and, and changing and [00:39:00] instituting that change and being leaders on, uh, to help initiate and vocalize with big platforms to talk about these issues that are, uh, not, you know, talked about enough. So
Will: I have a question for you. Um, does. Does. The, the, the, the long hour, cause you don’t, as an attending nurse, you don’t have work hour restrictions, right?
So how do you handle, what’s the, you know, what are the expectations for you or are they, are they, are they restrictions you put on yourself at times? Like, how do you, cause I’m sure there are some times when you feel like you really can’t go on, like, how, how do you manage that? Because it’s gotta be, it’s gotta come from you as an attending, right?
Or is it, are there restrictions at the hospital like helps with, or like, I guess, how do you manage that situation? Yeah,
Dr. Betsy Grunch: that’s a great point. And a lot of people bring that up in these videos. You know, I’ve done, you mentioned that vlog that I did, the 72 hour vlog and all the, the things I get a, how’s this possible?
How can you do that? There’s work hour [00:40:00] restrictions. There’s not, I mean, even pilots have work hour restrictions. Residents have work hour restrictions, but people like me who are, you know, I have zero work hour restrictions and I’ve been on call since Friday at 7 a. m. And it’s Monday now at 4 p. m. And I just finished my work and I haven’t been up that whole time, but I have been continuously woken, woken up and have not gotten a full night’s sleep.
And that is something that wears on you over the years. And. And there are good days and bad days. And, you know, earlier when I was younger, I tolerate it really well. Cause I thought that was normal. It’s how I grew up in residency and how I trained myself and you kind of. I think, you know, in some ways it’s good as residents to get stressed, stressed and work under harsh conditions because it does train you for real life, but, um, I personally have just taken this, you know, past few months, even the past year to really reflect on that as a person, as a mom, how I’m pulled away from my family during these types of [00:41:00] situations to really, um, put more restrictions on myself.
And, um, you know, actually moving forward when I am on like a weekend call like this, I, uh, just had this group with my partner the other day. We’ve decided that we’re going to have to take a day off. Not if it’s not just to kind of catch up on rest, it’s just to kind of catch up on cases. Cause like I said, I had a full day of clinic today and I couldn’t even do it because of, of where I was being pulled.
But. I mean, in private practice, which is where I’m in there, there are no restrictions in what I put on my work. I could be up for a week straight and no one would care. And people would still expect me to work and they would want me to be there.
Kristin: Patients will care. I think patients don’t always know the situation, but I mean, I’ve been along for this whole ride since before med school.
Right. So like that, that’s one of the things I’ve been saying this entire time is like, one, isn’t it ironic that you people like, who knows more about taking care [00:42:00] of the body and the brain than a neurosurgeon and two. Like, I don’t, I don’t want somebody that’s been up for, like, however many hours in a row, or isn’t well rested or whatever, like, I would prefer that if my brain is being operated on, that the person has, you know, slept well.
That’s, maybe that’s just me, but I feel like a lot of patients might agree with me, like, I would be in favor of work hour restrictions for all of my physicians,
Will: but I think a lot of people would agree with you.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: I think a lot of people would agree with you, but I will argue that a lot of people will not agree with you.
Cause I’ve had patients upset, genuinely upset for moving cases around or canceling cases or expect me to like, Oh, the case is delayed till 11 o’clock. Well, why aren’t you doing it? Like. Well, I, I, I probably should sleep and I probably shouldn’t be awake operating on you right now. And, uh, it’s, it’s a tough, it’s, it’s tough, but, um, but yeah, I think, I think, [00:43:00] yeah,
Kristin: yeah, yeah, right.
I think patients should be more educated too. And social media would be great for this too, about like, what is it that is causing these things, right? What’s
Will: preventing you from being able to, to, to, to get. Enough sleep that you feel like you can function at a hundred percent. And it’s cause, cause it’s not, it’s not like you’re choosing to do this, you know, uh, when you’re tired, it’s just, it’s because part of it’s necessity and you’re trained to be able to do it.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Right.
Will: Uh, with, with, with, uh, you know, being, you know, not well rested and, and maybe that’s part of the problem too, but it’s, so it’s, it’s, uh, definitely a multi factorial issue. And I think the more education that’s done around it, the better. Yeah. Cause you’re right. People need to know. All the reasons and
Kristin: yeah, because I think the general lay person, let’s say, you know, kind of sees healthcare as any other consumer model, right?
Where, well, I have an appointment at this time, so why aren’t you seeing? I know we’ve gone over [00:44:00] that ad nauseum, but, but it’s the same issue of like, well, they just said, Uh, we don’t always know what’s behind the curtain, you know, and, and then it creates this friction between patient and doctor, but, uh, anyway, that’s a whole other podcast episode we could do.
Probably have done.
Will: I want to, I want to take one more break and then we’re going to have, have a little game to play.
Kristin: Okay. Okay.
Will: Hey, Kristen.
Kristin: Yeah.
Will: I think you’ve been neglecting our little friends here.
Kristin: Oh. Yeah. Do they need some attention?
Will: They do from you in particular.
Kristin: Oh, okay. Yeah,
Will: they’re your favorite, the Demodex mites.
Kristin: Love, love it, love a good mite.
Will: They’re so cute, but they can cause problems.
Kristin: Yep.
Will: Yeah, if you get like red, itchy, irritated eyelids.
Kristin: Yeah.
Will: It could be caused by these little guys.
Kristin: That would not seem very fun.
Will: Demodex blepharitis, they can’t help it. They’re just living their lives.
Kristin: I guess so. But
Will: it does, it’s not fun. No, not for the
Kristin: human.
Will: And they’re a lot smaller than this.
Kristin: That’s good. [00:45:00] They’re
Will: not quite as cute, but almost.
Kristin: Okay.
Will: All right.
But this is not something you should get freaked out by.
Kristin: Okay.
Will: You got to get checked out.
Kristin: Yes.
Will: To learn more about how demodex blepharitis can affect you to find out more, you go to eyelidcheck. com. Okay. That’s E Y E L I D check. com to get more information about demodex blepharitis.
Alright, we are back with Dr. Grunch. Uh, so, uh, Betsy, we have a game that’s admittedly incredibly challenging.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: I’m ready. This is,
Will: like, trust me. I’ve trained my whole
Dr. Betsy Grunch: life for this moment.
Will: No, you have not trained for this moment. This is, forget MCAT, Step 1, uh, your neurosurgery boards. Like, I promise you, if you pass this, I will be incredibly impressed.
So the game is called, Is It Spineless? As a spine doc, you’re big into spines. You [00:46:00] love spines. So here we go. This is how the game is played.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Given,
Will: I will give you the Latin name of an organism.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: You
Will: have to guess if that organism is a vertebrate or an invertebrate.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: I need my nine year old to help me with this.
Kristen’s gonna play with you. So the
Will: two of you are gonna be But I can see the
Kristin: answers.
Will: No, I’m hiding. I’m hiding the answers from you. Okay. All right. All right, here we go. All right, the first one. Panthera Leo, L E O, Panthera. And I’m supposed
Dr. Betsy Grunch: to say invertebrate or vertebrate?
Will: Yeah, you think that’s a ver And bonus points if you can tell me what animal that is.
Panthera. That is a vertebrate. That is a lion. Leo. Leo. Leo. Leo. And
Kristin: panthera. That sounds like panther. Oh, okay. I’m going to fail this. I told you.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: This is not good.
Will: I told you this is going to be hard. Here we go. Next one. All right. I think you’ll get this one. Octopus vulgaris.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: [00:47:00] Well, I’m going to go with invertebrate,
Will: invertebrate.
What kind of animal is that?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: It’s an
Will: octopus. Invertebrate, you got it. Okay. You got it. All right. This is what I like this one a lot. Gallus, Gallus,
Kristin: spell it
Will: G A L L U S.
Kristin: Okay.
Will: You guys can work on this one together.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: I have no idea. I don’t either. I’m going to guess invertebrate, but I don’t know. I’m going to be wrong.
Will: That’s a vertebrate. That’s a
Dr. Betsy Grunch: chicken. A chicken. A chicken.
Will: Gallus. I should know that.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: I live in the poultry capital of the world. Oh, yeah. I don’t think anybody’s
Will: using Latin names for chicken
Kristin: anywhere. Open a restaurant. It’ll be a big hit. Gallus. Gallus. Yes. Gallus.
Will: Gallus. There you go. Oh, that’s actually pretty good.
I like that. But it needs to be in Dallas. Gallus. Gallus Gallus in Dallas? Oh, that’s a lot like that. That’s good. [00:48:00] Dallas Gallus. Alright, here’s, uh, we’ll do a couple more here. Because this is Free business ideas for the taking here. You guys are failing miserably. Yeah. This is really bad. We’re killing it.
Alright. Echinaster suppositus.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Well, it’s got a rectum.
Will: Echinaster. I know that.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Suppositus sounds interesting. Sounds like it’s got a rectum.
Will: I would say it does not have a rectum. It’s, it lives in the, it’s, it lives in water.
Kristin: Okay. Invertebrate.
Will: Yes. If
Kristin: it’s got no rectum, I’m going to guess that’s an invertebrate.
I mean, I don’t know what the correlation is between them, but I feel like it’s high.
Will: That’s good reasoning. Yes. It is an invertebrate. That is a red starfish.
Kristin: Oh.
Will: Echinaster, like, I feel like that’s a,
Kristin: Well there’s like Echinacea, which is a flower that’s got a bunch of petals.
Will: Yeah. I don’t know if that’s related.
Aster
Kristin: too, isn’t that like star related?
Will: Oh, Echinaster, that’s uh, could be. Yeah,
Kristin: I think so.
Will: We are, we’re just making up all kinds of stuff right now. Well, [00:49:00] astral
Kristin: is space.
Will: Alright, here’s, here’s one I hope Dr. Grunch can get here. Panthera partus. Panthera partus.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: I will, I think panther. I’m, I’m thinking it’s panther.
I don’t know. Another cat. You got it. Oh, that’s actual spine.
Will: It does have a spine.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Excellent. Oh,
Will: what
Dr. Betsy Grunch: size pedicle screws of.
Will: Does anybody ever asked you your opinion on their, their animal, their pets? Spine? Oh
Dr. Betsy Grunch: yeah, absolutely. What, what,
Will: what kind of, what kind of inquiries do you get about that?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: I mean, like, dogsons and chihuahuas, all those type of little dogs will have spine injuries and, uh, you know, it’s actually fairly common.
I actually worked with a pediatric neurosurgeon that performed a Spine surgery on animals. Like kind of on the, as a, as a side. Yeah. What’s kind of interesting. Above board or below? Like it helped, helped, helped with that. I don’t know if you have to [00:50:00] be sword board certified to operate on animals. I assume you had to.
I would think so.
Will: Some kind of certification. People ask me, you know, could I do their dog’s cataract surgery? And I was like,
Kristin: Like, technically, probably, you
Will: could, but
Kristin: you shouldn’t.
Will: Yeah, I mean, there are people that are trained to do that. But, I mean, I don’t know how similar the spinal anatomy is. I bet I can name some spinal anatomy.
Let’s go for it. Pedicles.
Kristin: Well, she just said that, that’s cheating.
Will: Oh yeah. Foramen.
Kristin: Okay. Foramen?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Good.
Will: Um, spinous.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Yes, spinous.
Will: Oh god.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Second word.
Will: Spinosum? No, that’s, that’s in the skin.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Spinous process. Oh, spinous process. Spinosum is an abortion. Spinous process is the part of your spine that you can feel when you poke on your skin.
[music]: Okay. That’s the point.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Yeah. But spinosum is a portion of a skull. It’s a part of a name of where one of the holes of the nerves exits.
Kristin: Yeah. I’ve got a word. What? It’s not anatomy. [00:51:00] What? Spondylolisthesis. Oh, that’s a good
Dr. Betsy Grunch: one. That’s one of my favorite words.
Will: It’s
Dr. Betsy Grunch: fun to
Kristin: say. That’s
Will: a good word.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: That means we’re doing a fusion.
Kristin: Yeah. Yeah. I got another word. I think.
Will: She knows this because she’s had one of these. She had one. I do not
Kristin: have a fusion. I have, I had a, well, hold on. Let’s see. One second, please. We’re going to, I just coming up with another game on the spot. If this’ll work. Let’s see. I’m going to test her neurosurgery knowledge.
I’m pretty sure she’s to give her an easy one after your disaster there.
Will: Hey, I was Gallus,
Kristin: Gallus. Gallus,
Will: Gallus. You’re never going to forget that that’s chicken. Now
Kristin: I won’t. Yeah, that’s true. And chickens have spines.
Will: Chickens do have spines. Chickens
Kristin: do have spines. Okay, let’s see here.
Will: You’re going to leave us hanging?
Kristin: Nope, I’m just getting it, getting it, getting it. Okay. Uh, okay. Okay. I’m going to give you the findings. Are you ready? I’m [00:52:00] ready. On flexion, there’s one millimeter retrolithesis of C5 on C6. On extension, there is one millimeter retrolithesis of C5 on C6 and one to two millimeters retrolithesis of C6 on C7.
I can’t say these things. There is degenerative disc space narrowing at C5 to C6 with mild marginal osteophytic spurring. Okay. No displaced acute fracture is seen. Vertebral body heights are preserved. Pre vertebral soft tissues are within normal limits.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: So you had a C5 6 disc replacement. I sure did. So within, within three millimeters of anterior lascesis is considered anatomically normal and, and, and you’re a very young age, I would agree with your surgeon’s plan of doing a disc replacement, so.
Yep. Did
Kristin: that. I was having, um, I can’t, now I was trying to think of the anatomy.
Will: Ridiculopathy.
Kristin: Not, that’s not the word I was thinking of. There’s a, there’s a good
Will: word though, right?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: It is a ridiculous. That is what I had, [00:53:00]
Kristin: but there’s a whole
Will: narrowing of the tunnel there where the nerve goes through,
Dr. Betsy Grunch: you know, neural pyramidal stenosis.
Kristin: Yeah, that’s the thing and I was losing function. I was just doing this all the time. Yes. I didn’t even,
Will: when you got that, I didn’t even know that you could do like a disc, like a replaced disc.
Kristin: I think it’s fairly new.
Will: So how long have you guys been doing that surgery?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Relatively. I mean really belts more Displacement’s been around a really long time, but I would say within insurance policy, acceptable stuff in the cervical spine, about 10 years or so since I’ve been out in practice, it’s becoming more and more, uh, common.
Insurance used to be like, no way? No. And then, you know, cause they need long term outcomes and I’ve been long enough to have the 5 and 10 year outcomes. So then they could say it’s a, you know, acceptable, not experimental BS that they like to throw around. So, uh, and then they needed the five year data on two levels.
So two level disc replacements becoming [00:54:00] more and more popularized in the past, like five years. So that’s actually one of my favorite procedures because you still. Retain the mobility of the spine and you don’t really like, you know, eliminate motion and it’s more, it’s more normal and people can go on to, I
Kristin: forget I even had it.
Like I just, yeah, you probably, maybe you can feel better. Yeah. So much better. It was awful before.
Will: What’s your favorite part of the spine to operate on?
Kristin: Oh, cervical spine for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I got to say though, as the patient, it is freaky. It was a real tough psychological pill to swallow those days before, and even after, like, knowing what happened, like, you go get your throat slit.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Yeah, the throat slit, you go between the carotid and the esophagus, pull it open, you’re like a millimeter on the spinal cord. When you describe
Will: the surgery to patients, do you phrase it like that? You say it just like that, I bet. We slit your throat.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Yep.
Will: Dig around the blood vessels, pull, sag
Dr. Betsy Grunch: in your Yep.
And, and they’re like, okay, where do I sign ?
Kristin: I was really surprised that they go through the front. Right. Because like all the [00:55:00] pain and everything was happening in the back. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. And so I expected it was gonna be back there. So like that was a, I mean. It’s funny now, but at the time I was like really scared about that, like I just, that really threw me for a loop when I found it.
Yeah, what’s
Dr. Betsy Grunch: really, what’s really freaky is whenever we’re doing the lumbar spine, I tell someone I’m going through their abdomen to get to their spine, and then they’re really like, It’s just easier
Will: to, easier to get to the disc from the front? Yeah, cause the nerves
Dr. Betsy Grunch: all pass through. If you come posterior through the back, you have to work around the nerves to get to the disc.
And so the implants and stuff are a little more limited. And, and, um, this is a lot easier to go anterior depending on what part of the spine. So it pays you really well. There’s like no muscles here. I mean, this is just all the platysma and that’s that. So. Post op pain is usually pretty minimal back here.
It’s like the, all the muscles there. So you cut through the muscles, it hurts like hell, and then they don’t like you for a long time. And yeah, so this is great. They go home the same day. They do great. [00:56:00] And sometimes I don’t even take a pain pill. All their pain’s gone. It’s wonderful.
Will: So you can do disc replacements throughout the whole spine, or is there a limit to how far down you can go?
Dr. Betsy Grunch: You can go like C3 to C7 and then all this stuff is kind of important. You can’t really get through. So once you get there, she is pointing to
Will: the heart and lungs.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: And then he. She’s my kind of person.
Will: I call it stuff too. It’s just stuff, stuff in the body.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Irrelevant things that I shouldn’t be manipulating.
Kristin: Too funny. Well, you know, there’s a connection between you two that, that you may not realize or between your, your, her field and you, uh, cervical disc replacement. You could argue saved your life.
Will: Oh, because you were able to do
Kristin: I had that four months before I had to do ten minutes of CPR.
Will: Yeah.
Kristin: On him.
That’s true. Oh. Oh, yes. And I [00:57:00] was, I was losing function in my arm, my right arm, which is my dominant one.
Will: Dang.
Kristin: Yeah, so I don’t know how well I would have, like, how effective I would have been able to be had I not had that surgery. You need
Will: to send your neurosurgeon a thank you card. Man.
Kristin: Well, I think I did already.
Will: I didn’t. Just for
Kristin: myself, you know. Yeah, yeah,
Will: I didn’t put two and two together there. That’s true. Yeah,
Kristin: I didn’t either until just now. Look at
Will: that.
Kristin: There you go. Saving lives. Appreciate
Will: what you do, Dr. Gretsch. Well, um, so let’s, we’ll wrap up here, but thank you so much for joining us and let’s tell people where to find you.
Uh, you are at Lady Neuro.
Kristin: No, Lady Spine Doc. Why is this so hard for
Will: you? It’s like the three words back. Anyway,
Kristin: lady, spine, lady,
Will: spine.
Kristin: They’re very short words.
Will: Dang. You’re right at lady spine doc, but you’re all, you’re all over social media. Um, tick tock everywhere. Um, you know, just search it up and you’ll find
Dr. Betsy Grunch: me, you’ll [00:58:00] find me.
Grunch isn’t too hard to find either. There’s not many of us. So
Will: yeah, that is a bit of a unique name. There’s not a lot of grunches out where you live.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: No, it gets fun around Christmas too. You know, I’m sure you’ve
Will: probably heard all the jokes.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: I’ve never heard it. Uh, not once for the first one.
Will: Well,
Dr. Betsy Grunch: thanks again
Will: for joining us.
Pleasure talking to you.
Dr. Betsy Grunch: Yeah, thanks again. Y’all have a good one.
Will: Well, I don’t think I totally embarrassed myself with my spinal anatomy. I got a couple, a couple of terms. Sometimes you dust the cobwebs
Kristin: off back there and pull something out.
Will: Yeah. Glad we got to, to talk about our own health issues with another doctor. That’s great.
Kristin: She nailed
Will: that MRI report though.
That was your reading, right?
Kristin: Well, I think it was an x ray. Well, I don’t know, whatever it was. It was an
Will: imaging report. Yes, it was
Kristin: an [00:59:00] imaging report. It was like,
Will: bam, she got it. Exactly what kind of procedure.
Kristin: That’s right.
Will: That’s that expertise. It takes years to get that.
Kristin: Yeah, see that’s it that like it sounds like it’s gonna be complicated and hard all these words I’m saying, but that was way easier than this animal thing for her, right, like as the expert.
Will: Gallus Gallus.
Kristin: Yeah.
Will: Gallus, Gallus, and Dallas.
Kristin: Chicken and Dallas.
Will: All right. Well, let us know what you thought. Please no, uh, no comments about the game. We’re gonna assume everyone thought that was awesome. Uh, and so also give us, uh, give us your ideas. Give us your stories. Uh, give us your, uh, you know, the, the guests that you want us to invite on the podcast to talk with.
We’d love to hear what you think. You can email us, knockknock. com. Not he mail us, you can email us, knock knock hi at human content. com, uh, visit us on our social media platforms. Hang out with us and our human content podcast family, Instagram, and TikTok at humancontentpods. Thanks to all the listeners leaving [01:00:00] feedback and reviews.
We love those reviews. If you subscribe, only the positive ones, only the good ones.
Kristin: I will accept and appreciate constructive criticism.
Will: That’s fine.
Kristin: But I don’t like insults.
Will: That’s true. Yeah.
Kristin: Take those elsewhere.
Will: Thanks to all the great listeners leaving wonderful feedback and reviews. We love those reviews.
If you subscribe and comment on your favorite podcasting app or on YouTube, we can give you a shout out. Like today, we have At Joshgirl5999 on YouTube said, would love to see content on my own eye condition, retinitis pigmentosa. That’s a good one. I just went through gene therapy to treat it in a clinical trial.
Oh, that’s so cool. That’s like a brand, brand new thing.
Kristin: Yeah. Clinical trials.
Will: That’s cool. Retinitis pigmentosa. I’m adding it to the list. All right. YouTube videos we have up every week on our YouTube channel at Glockenfleckens. You can see all the episodes there. Knock knock hi, and knock knock I, is over there.
We also have Patreon, lots of cool perks, bonus episodes, react to medical [01:01:00] shows and movies. Hang out with other members of our little community. Our little hamlet,
[music]: our
Will: little uh, little growing township. Early ad free episode access, interactive Q& A, live stream events, much more, patreon. com slash Galagaplacan, or go to galagaplacan.
com. Speaking of. Patreon, Community, Perk, shout out to the Jonathans, shall we?
Kristin: As always.
Will: Patrick, Lucia C, Sharon S, Omer, Edward K, Steven G, Jonathan F, Miriam W, Mr. Gurren Daddy, Caitlin C, Brianna L, KL, Keith G, JJH, Derek M, Mary H, Susannah F, Ginny J, Mohammed K. Avika, Parker, Ryan, Muhammad L, David H times 2, Gabe, Gary M, Eric, B, Medical Mag, Bubbly Salt, and Pink Macho!
Virtual head nod to you all. You know, our producers haven’t changed that up yet.
Kristin: They did, they did do uh, David H times 2. I thought they were
Will: gonna mess with me a little bit. Yeah, I’m
Kristin: disappointed to see that they have not.
Will: Patreon roulette, random shout out to someone on the emergency medicine tier, Jerilyn R.
Thank you, Geraldine, for being a patron, and thank you all for listening. We’re your hosts, Will and CryptoPlanetary. Also known as the [01:02:00] Glockenplegons. Special thanks to our guest today, Dr. Betsy Grunch, Lady Spine Doc. Our executive producers are Will Planery, CryptoPlanetary, Aron Korney, Rob Goldman, and Shahnti Brooke.
Editor in Engineer Jason Portizzo. Our music is by Omer Ben Zvi. To learn about our Knock Knock Highs, Program Discipline, Ethics, Policy, Submission, Verification, and Licensing Terms, and those darn HIPAA Release Terms, you can go to Glockenflecken. com or reach out to us at knockknockhigh at human content.
com with questions, concerns, or fun medical puns if you got them. Knock Knock High! It’s a human content production. Hey, Kristen, you went to the doctor recently. I
[music]: did. I had my annual checkup. Did they have
Will: a Jonathan?
Kristin: They had a virtual Jonathan.
Will: Oh,
Kristin: yes. In fact, it was a Dax co pilot from Microsoft. Yes.
Will: That’s, oh, that’s, those things are amazing. It’s just, there’s just so much documentation [01:03:00] burden. And I’m sure your, did your doctor look at you in the eye?
Kristin: Yes, there was a lot of eye contact. Isn’t
Will: that great?
Mm hmm. It’s just, and the, the, the virtual Jonathan, just, I’m sure it, it lifted your doctor’s spirits. Mm hmm. Put a pep
Kristin: in her step. Just
Will: to be able to get through the day and actually have like a relationship with you.
Kristin: Right.
Will: Is a huge deal. In fact, uh, 80 percent of physicians who use DAX Copilot say it reduces cognitive burden.
Kristin: I believe it. It seemed pretty slick.
Will: Yeah. Just be more focused on what you’re doing and just. Do what we’re trained to do, practice medicine. To learn about how DAX Copilot can help you reduce burnout and restore the joy of practicing medicine. Visit aka. ms slash knock, knock high again. That’s aka. ms slash knock, knock high.