Transcript
[music]: [00:00:00] Knock,
knock, hi!
Will: Knock, knock, hi!
Hello, welcome to Knock, Knock, Hi! with the Glockenfleckens. I am Dr. Glockenflecken, also known as Will Flannery.
Kristin: I am Lady Glockenflecken, also known as Kristen Flannery.
Will: Thank you for joining us! On your commute or wherever, wherever it is you’re listening, maybe late at night before you go to bed.
Kristin: I wonder where people are listening.
Will: Would you listen to this podcast before you, like, would you fall asleep to my voice?
Kristin: Yeah, especially the eyeball episodes. I would.
Will: That’s alright. Yeah, that’s a good idea. Yeah, you’d love it. I’m sure my voice really puts you to sleep. Um, Wait, this is an exciting day.
Kristin: Yep.
Will: We are this the last episode before our Washington DC live show.
Kristin: That’s right We are excited to be there the Howard Theatre
Will: one thing I’ve really enjoyed when people this happens sometimes and when I want to [00:01:00] do like keynotes and like graduation speeches and stuff
Kristin: Mm hmm.
Will: I love it when people will show up wearing certain things.
Kristin: Yes from my inspired by your characters like bicycle
Will: helmets,
Kristin: right?
Will: Unicorn headbands.
Kristin: Yeah, yeah
Will: Great stuff. I love it. Whatever
Kristin: specialty people are, they usually come with the costume for that. One time I had,
Will: one time I had a group of, um, of infectious disease physicians who all wore shirts that said The Closer.
Kristin: Yeah, they had like custom shirts made. It was very cute.
Custom shirts
Will: made with my face on them and, uh, and I, it was the greatest thing.
Kristin: Yeah. I
Will: think I’ve ever seen.
Kristin: So we’re trying to make that easier for people. Yes. Especially with our live shows. Perfect opportunity, uh, to come dressed as your favorite Glockham Flecking character. So we are, we’ve created, um, a list on Amazon to make it super easy for you.
So we will link it in the show notes or on YouTube in the show description, uh, for you to, to hop on Amazon and find and purchase Glockham Flecking certified.
Will: Certified. [00:02:00]
Kristin: Slash approved.
Will: I think there’s like a houndstooth coat in there.
Kristin: Couple of those. There’s a bike helmet.
Will: Some gold aviator.
Kristin: That’s right.
Just poke those lenses right out and you’ll be authentic. Also,
Will: if you just are a lazy medical professional and you want to show up in scrubs, not because you want to dress up as one of my characters, but because you don’t want to change out of your scrubs, like you would fit right in.
Kristin: That’s right. Don’t even worry about it.
Will: All right. Let’s, uh, let’s talk about our guest today.
Kristin: Yes. Dr. Jesse Gold is just,
Will: uh, we’ve had her on the podcast already. She’s a psychiatrist. She’s a chief wellness officer of the university of Tennessee system. Like we’re talking all across the state. All
Kristin: the campuses.
Will: So like five different campuses.
Amazing. She’s also an associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Tennessee Health Science Center. Her first book, How Do You Feel? One Doctor’s Journey [00:03:00] for, or sorry, One Doctor’s Search for Humanity in Medicine. is out October 8th.
Kristin: It’s going to be a good one. People can preorder it or you can order it after it’s out, but definitely go check that out.
Will: She’s such a, she’s so thoughtful and, and of just, you can tell, you can tell talking to her, like, man, this is a good psychiatrist. Yeah. Like, this is someone, you know, I mean, I think she maybe does a little therapy on us during the episode. Oh,
Kristin: I don’t see how you can not. We’re like a walking billboard.
Will: We present it to her like it’s on a platter.
Like, look at our neuroses. Please do something about this in the 45 minutes we’re talking to you. Please, podcast guest. So anyway, we had a wonderful conversation. So should we get to it?
Kristin: Let’s go.
Will: All right. Here’s Dr. Jesse Gold.
Today’s episode is brought to you by the DAX Copilot from Microsoft. DAX Copilot is your AI assistant for automating clinical documentation and workflows, [00:04:00] helping you to be more efficient and reduce the administrative burden that causes us to feel overwhelmed and burnt out. Out to learn more about how Dax Copilot can help reduce burnout and restore the joy of practicing medicine.
Stick around after the episode or visit aka. ms slash knock, knock high. That’s aka. ms slash knock, knock high.
All right. We are here with Dr. Jesse Gold. Jesse, thank you so much for coming back on. Uh, we, we talked to you last on the podcast. Well, like a year ago,
Kristin: and
Will: just a few things have changed, right? Just a
Dr. Jessi Gold: little bit.
Will: Yep. Thanks for coming on.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Will: So, um, let me just get this straight. First of all, congratulations on this new job, but I’m going to describe a little bit of this job here, uh, for our, for our audience.
So, um, you are the chief wellness officer at the university of Tennessee system, but [00:05:00] that’s just listening to these numbers. Okay. Okay. 59, 000 students,
[music]: 19,
Will: 000 faculty and staff. Sounds busy, I don’t know. It’s, it’s, like, I, I hear those and I think, whoa, no, that’s, that’s too much, too many people.
Kristin: You just have 80, 000 clients, it’s
Will: fine.
Yeah, yeah, so, is that, is that daunting to you? Like what were, take us through what you were feeling when you got this job and congratulations. It’s amazing.
Dr. Jessi Gold: So I guess I’m one of these people who sort of likes a challenge. I think a lot of mentors and stuff were like, a lot of mentors were like, it’s new.
They don’t know what you’re really exactly doing. It’s big. Are you sure? And I was like, it sounds fun to me. I don’t know, I think I’ve always just been angry at systems and wanting to be in a place that I could change them and like, I was given the opportunity to do that. And the reason it’s so many numbers, the numbers are so big is it’s over all five campuses, which is basically across the whole state [00:06:00] of Tennessee.
So probably a lot of people listening who are like healthcare people have heard the chief wellness officer title in a hospital system or in their medical school. I work at the health science center, which is like, Medicine, Pharmacy, Dentistry, Nursing, like all of those, like, uh, colleges. However, my job is over not just the Health Science Center students, but also like the University of Tennessee students in all of the other campuses.
So grad students and undergrad, and that’s where the big number comes from. So like if you ever see sports and you watch the Tennessee volunteers, that would be one of my campuses. Um, so it’s fun cause I get to kind of combine There’s longstanding interest in college kids and healthcare workers and then get to actually make systems changes.
It’s going to be slow, which, you know, not everyone loves. And I have to do a lot of the not so sexy stuff like data.
Will: Oh yeah. Yeah. Is it, is this, uh, The biggest scale, like, chief wellness position in the [00:07:00] country? I mean, you may not know, but it’s got to be one of the biggest. Like,
Dr. Jessi Gold: it’s got to be up there.
You know, when you look at some people who have this, there are some systems like the UC, like California systems has a person doing it from California, but there’s like some limits to what they can actually do on each campus. But since I’m like actually. Uh, a part of the system that is, is kind of controlling all five campuses.
I actually can help on the individual campuses. So I would guess so, but nobody, it’s really hard to find this stuff out. Like I’ve been slowly crawling through groups of people that do this stuff. And I’m like, Hey, what do you do? Hey, what do you do? Let’s talk.
Kristin: Yeah. Well, it’s not, I mean, I don’t think so.
Maybe there is, but I don’t think it’s. There’s like a conference of chief wellness officers, right? Like, how do you, how do you find your, your
Dr. Jessi Gold: professional network? There’s a group of the healthcare ones, but it’s hard because I’m not just healthcare focused. So like talking about Epic all day is relevant to part of my life, but not of four of the five campuses.
And, and [00:08:00] so I’m not like super into just talking about Epic all day. So I think that those folks have, built a community and a network as they’ve grown, but I’m not sure there’s as much in sort of just the generic academic space, if you want to call what I’m doing that.
Will: So I have questions about both the, the healthcare space and with wellness and the, the college space, which I know far less about, but I know in the healthcare space, it seems like wellness, the term wellness has, has been kind of like co opted into this, You know, kind of
Kristin: squishy, you
Will: know, not really defined, you know, kind of almost, um, uh, not a real thing or, or looked down upon or, you know, associated with pizza parties and, and nurses week gifts of like a rock because you’re a rock for our community.
So. What are your thoughts about that, and how are you, how are you going to try [00:09:00] to change the narrative here about what wellness is on the healthcare side?
Dr. Jessi Gold: I think I’ve always had the fun job of swimming in the words that we’ve totally messed up the definitions of, so mental health in general is just like co opted.
Really wrong all the time, but then like doing this kind of work, you’ve got resilience, which people hate, you’ve got wellness, which people hate. So I’m doing really well there, but you know, it’s literally, it’s literally in your
Will: title, Jesse, like, well, like, what are you going to do?
Dr. Jessi Gold: It is in my title.
There’s nothing I can do about it. You know, it’s really interesting. Like I asked on social once, like how people defined it and every single person had a different definition. And I think that’s one of the hard things about wellness is it is a in some way individual, but there are these sort of like Decided upon versions that come from health administrations and come from research and include these like eight domains Which is not just emotional wellness, but also like physical, spiritual, financial, social.
I could keep going but there are eight But you know, [00:10:00] I think inherently we cringe because it’s been used in those settings when it really is all of it So I’m not just like the chief Mental health officer who is only over counseling and only doing crisis, right? And so wellness at least lets you say it’s not just being sick, right?
And so there’s this whole spectrum of like prevention to intervention and across all these domains that you could look at when you’re thinking about wellness. I think We just don’t use it right, and I think we use it interchangeably with well being, which is also super confusing, and I think everybody’s just like, why is that your title?
But inherently, it’s the broadest possible title, um, meaning I could do a lot of different things and sort of, I’m aware that all those things intersect, if that makes sense.
Kristin: I think you just, uh, laid out the premise for your second book.
Dr. Jessi Gold: What is this thing that somebody, somebody gave me this title, what does it mean?
My favorite answer on, on social was like, I’m pretty sure that was a Rorschach [00:11:00] test. And I was like, you’re right. It is like one of those words that like you could look at and it might mean like fish to you or like flying animals or like my, oh, that’s me, like hanging out with my friends, right? Like a Rorschach test, which like I’ve never done ever.
But, you know, I think inherently that’s
Will: not a thing anymore. They
Dr. Jessi Gold: don’t teach it to us. I mean, maybe they teach therapists that, but it’s like more of this kind of thing. They make fun of psychiatrists about, um, like, like many things. Um, but you know, I think that was a funny answer from the person because it is like this word we just throw around a lot and people use however they want.
And, and I guess in a way, like in a big role, that’s new that you get to decide what you’re doing, you’re kind of defining that as part of it.
Will: Burnout’s another one of those words. What do you, does your anxiety go up when you hear someone just mention burnout as kind of like a catch all for having a difficult time at work?
Like, I, I don’t know. What do you tell us about burnout?
Dr. Jessi Gold: Yeah. I [00:12:00] mean, so let’s just name all more words that go with what I do that people don’t know what they mean. You know, I think that burnout, especially over the pandemic, but even before people started using it, like I just am tired from work or work is like more than it should be, or I don’t like work, or whatever, and so I’m burnt out.
And really, like, when we’re thinking about it from sort of a research perspective, because they’re who really defined the word, um, it’s this constellation of three things, with one thing being emotional exhaustion, which to most people really looks like physical exhaustion, so like at the end of the day, you’re just really tired.
Spent. The second one varies between studies, so it can be cynicism, meaning like you’re kind of angry about the world, or depersonalization, meaning like you’re just disconnected, which can be kind of interesting in healthcare because we’re taught to be disconnected, but it’s like. I always describe it as like that thing that makes you who you are in your field is like the thing you’re missing.
So maybe you’re not making a mistake, but maybe like you’re not as connected to patients as you would be or not as connected to [00:13:00] colleagues as you would be. And so you’re not actually practicing at like a hundred percent, even though you think you are. And then the last one is a reduced sense of personal accomplishment.
I think that’s self explanatory, but in my opinion, that’s the one that people go, Oh, something’s wrong with me. Cause like they, they did something that like. someone noticed or they noticed themselves not doing as much work. The other ones I feel like people go, well, I’m supposed to be emotionally exhausted from work.
Well, I’m supposed to be depersonalized because that’s how we deal with this stuff. And the last one is like, oh, wait, no, I’m not doing work. That’s a problem. Um, interestingly, it’s not like a diagnostic, like a diagnostic criteria in a psychiatric manual. Like we haven’t put it there yet. It’s all like a workplace associated condition.
Will: DSM hasn’t gotten its claws into it yet. No,
Dr. Jessi Gold: no, we haven’t. We haven’t. And like some people would argue we won’t, but really it’s because we keep it in this like workplace associated condition category, meaning like it’s the workplace that causes those things. It can be broadly defined, right? So if you’re a stay at home mom and your workplace is home, [00:14:00] that can still make you burnt out.
Or if you’re in school and your workplace is school, same thing, but it’s from work. It’s from the systems that are like causing all of those symptoms.
Will: One thing that I think is so unique also about your job here is, is going from healthcare to college and specifically like med students to college. So I’m curious what kind of overlap you see, because there’s not a lot separating those in, in, in both time and, uh, probably some of the, the stresses that they’re under.
So I’m curious what you’re noticing as the, Chief wellness officer that encompasses both of those groups.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Yeah. You know, for some reason we believe that people like are fine and then they go to med school and med school messes them up. Like there’s, there’s, there’s some data, right? That says like when we go to med school, Our depression is equivalent to age match peers and then we get more sad than them.
And maybe that’s true, but we’re missing [00:15:00] something there. If you’ve ever been around a bunch of premeds, you know that that’s its own beast and there’s something going on there and there’s a ton of anxiety. and a ton of perfectionism and a ton of overwork, right? Like, we’re doing all these things and they’re super hyper competitive.
And so, you know, I’ve always been interested in that group. I did my master’s on, um, basically pre med as a culture in anthropology. Um, because I was like sitting there being like, Yeah, because I was watching as a pre med going like, Oh, I like that person. They dropped out. Like, why? Like, what’s going on that all of the people who I think would be like really awesome doctors and are really nice, what’s going on that they’re all leaving?
And I was really curious about that when I was in med school, or even before I was in med school and then kind of continued on with that interest. And so I’ve always seen college students as Patients. Um, so it’s interesting to be able to now do it from a more administrative perspective. But, um, you know, I don’t think we’re like, fine.
I mean, there’s a lot of stuff going on in college that’s its own unique thing, like identity [00:16:00] development, experimentation, first time away from home. Like I could go on and on on that first, first break for a lot of different psychiatric illnesses around that time anyway. But then you add like, Now I want to be a doctor and that’s super normal.
Um, and it’s a lot of competition and a lot of stress. And I think if you kind of follow that forward, you can see how we become the way that we are. And if we would learn that stuff earlier, maybe we’d be better at coping. I don’t know.
Will: How much is like test anxiety? A part of this, because there’s been a lot of press obviously in med school about, you know, stuff, how to approach step one, how to approach these tests pass, fail, like, do you, is that helping or hurting or doing anything at all?
So can you talk about like testing the anxiety? Cause. That’s something I’m sure there’s a lot of overlap there.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Oh, sure. I mean, you know, I have really bad test anxiety. You wouldn’t be able to tell if you saw where I went into school and went to school, cause you’d probably say I must’ve figured it [00:17:00] out and I didn’t.
I just figured out how to do a lot of other stuff. So they kind of ignored my test scores. Um, But, you know, test anxiety is a huge part of it, especially standardized tests. We have these sort of, like, arbitrary ways of deciding who can get interviews or who can get to the next level of things. And so, it puts a lot of pressure on people.
I mean, starting in high school for things like SATs, ACTs, and kind of continuing on, like, we don’t ever stop having tests. So, I mean, I think we have them all the time, which is part of the problem. But, you know, it’s like this pressure of like, if I don’t do well on this, I can’t be X, Y, or Z. I won’t get into X, Y, and Z.
I’m a failure. There’s a lot there. And, um, you know, I have a lot of patients who. Like, before tests, like, you know, their anxiety is like 10 out of 10. Always they can’t sleep, their stomach hurts, they’re throwing up, like, they need meds for tests to be able to even like sit and take it. And I think that, you know, that kind of anxiety, maybe not everybody has.
I think everybody can kind of understand the [00:18:00] three or four where you’re like, it can mess up my ability to do some of this stuff. But for when those folks are like 10 out of 10, they’ll like skip pages on the test and not realize they did and they’ll like, you know, I had a patient go to the wrong test center,
[music]: you know, like things
Dr. Jessi Gold: like that, like it, it, it, and then you go and then they won’t let you take it and that just compounds it.
Right? So test taking anxiety is a big part of, um, Kind of what’s going on in young folks, but especially young folks trying to be doctors.
Will: Sure. Did you, Kristen, do you ever have taste anxiety? I don’t remember you. I didn’t.
Kristin: I mean, yeah, a little bit of nerves, right, is normal. Like you’re saying, you know, I don’t know if I would even call it a three or four, but I’m, I’m, I was the real nerd.
I kind of thought tests are fun.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Someone
Kristin: has to. It’s like a little game or a challenge or something. I mean, not every class, but most of them.
Will: Kristen is also the least [00:19:00] competitive person I’ve ever met because I think a lot of test anxiety Is also like how you’re compared to your peers, right? You don’t want to, you don’t want to fall behind or you don’t want to be embarrassed, you know, compared to your friends.
Um, I don’t think you probably feel rebel
Kristin: of like, who cares? Right. Like, like I am what I am
Will: for you. Yeah.
Kristin: That’s so mature of you. I mean, it might sound mature and healthy, but I think there’s also some pathology there. I’m just like, Forget all of you and your standards. You have
Dr. Jessi Gold: narcissism. Yeah, I mean, I get it.
I mean, I just don’t, I don’t know. I wasn’t like that. So in high school, when I took the ACT and they were like you have 10 minutes left or whatever and I started to get super nauseous and I ran out and threw up. And then I cancelled my scores. And I’d never, I mean, I had felt bad before, but that was bad.
Did they, did
Will: they take that out of your break time?
Dr. Jessi Gold: Yeah, probably. Yeah. [00:20:00] I didn’t go back. I like, I threw left.
Will: Oh, wow. I threw up and then
Dr. Jessi Gold: I, I left and I was like, can I cancel my scores? What happens? And they were like, it just, You paid for it, but it goes away because you didn’t finish. And I was like, cool, I didn’t finish.
And I just knew that like, I wasn’t gonna be able to like, get back on the horse and call it a day for the rest of the test. Because I’d be like, so anxious about that one section or what I did. And so, I’m very aware of the test taking anxiety stuff. I’m much better now, but.
Kristin: I took, I just shouldn’t admit these things.
You should. I took, The, I can’t remember if it was the SAT or the ACT. You
Will: took the ACT. I remember that. Well, I
Kristin: took both, but what I’m going to say is my freshman year, my older brother was a senior and he was taking all those things for college and stuff. And I was like, I’m going to try. That looks fun.
So I started taking them for fun. My freshman year and then just like kind of kept, you know, let’s see if I can get higher the next time. And I was like [00:21:00] competing against myself and to see if I could beat my brother.
Will: Aren’t you something? I
Kristin: am. Well, look, I’m not bragging. This is weird behavior.
Will: That is, that’s very strange behavior.
Can I, let me tell you what, I think my worst test taking experience was the MCAT test.
Kristin: Oh, that was awful. It’s
Will: a very challenging test. And by the way, I took the last paper and pencil MCAT that, that occurred. You know, it’s this,
Kristin: I’m so proud of that. Yeah.
Will: Anyway. Um, I wanted to ask you, Jessie. So after the test.
I
Kristin: need to preface this with he got a, he got a great score, so it’s not that he didn’t, but what he’s not saying is I did poorly on this test. So I, after
Will: the test, I, I really was like convinced, honestly convinced, not just saying that, honestly convinced that I had done very poorly, failed at no way. I’m going to med [00:22:00] school.
Uh, I like, sat in the dark in my room, my dorm room, just like,
Kristin: I had to like, stage an intervention.
Will: I couldn’t, I didn’t want to do anything, eat, uh, I just, I was like, my life was over. He was like,
Kristin: fully depressed.
Will: No, no, well, I don’t think I was, but, You
Kristin: were lying in the dark and wouldn’t get up even to eat.
I
Will: have a question for Jessie.
Dr. Jessi Gold: I want to hear about the depression, okay?
Will: Yeah. What was that? That was
Dr. Jessi Gold: depression!
Will: What was that? Well,
Dr. Jessi Gold: you know what? I’ll say a couple it was depression. I’ll say a couple of things. So one is that like you’re so built up, like even going, like let’s say you’re gonna run a marathon and you finish the marathon and you have nothing left and you’re just like, it’s almost like you’re, all your adrenaline fades from your body and all that’s left is nothing and that can look like depression.
But if you put on top of it, like. And I also think I failed. Like, of course, then, like, all the negative thoughts will come with it. So you have this big, big build up with tons of anxiety and tons of, like, preparation. Then it’s over. [00:23:00] And so all that kind of goes away. And then you’re like, Oh, but I also did badly, and I won’t know for a while how badly I did.
And so I’m just gonna ruminate on that. So, it obviously can’t be, like, Yeah, so, you know, it’s not going to be like depression, depression as, as grossly defined, but I do think it’s a bit of this like post test, like downturn as a result of the energy you put into it, the lack of sleep you put into it. And then you’re like, and also I did badly and I’m going to feel badly about that.
Like for me, after I took step one, I went through a drive thru cause I was like, I’m going to celebrate. I went through a drive thru and then like paid and got home and I was like, I didn’t stop at the second window. Like, I straight up left. Like, I paid and left. You forgot to get your stuff. I forgot to get my food.
But I think it’s like that same, like I literally, I, I, I like, was like, I’m gonna do this. And, and then my memory was all sorts of weird because I just sat in a test for eight hours and I was just like,
Will: Your brain’s in like some [00:24:00] kind of weird state. Like
Dr. Jessi Gold: I wasn’t depressed, but I was like, not with it. Like I’ve never done, like I literally just drove, like I just drove past the window.
The people were probably like, what happened? I would love to hear what they said, yeah,
Will: inside. What the hell is going on here?
Dr. Jessi Gold: What’s wrong with, she just gave us a tip because I did, I guess. I just gave them money for nothing. So, you know, but I didn’t realize until I got home either. That person’s going to
Will: be a doctor?
Really? Right. That’s what we’re dealing with here.
Kristin: I’m more interested for you in the, like, why are you convinced that you did so poorly when then you get your score back later and it’s great. Like, so, so that’s, that’s a theme with you too. I wanna know what that is. Well, I would say, Jesse, analyze us.
Would you listen
Will: that that was, that was the worst. Experience it. Like that
Kristin: was the hardest test you’d ever, you hadn’t really experienced a test that hard before, but even though it was by far
Will: the hardest test I’d ever taken, but I will say my, my response to like subsequent tests, like step one, step two, I felt [00:25:00] like I did, uh, I didn’t have that.
That extreme reaction. So maybe it was just, well, you
Kristin: did always think you did worse than you end up doing, but yeah, you didn’t lie in the dark alone.
Will: And so maybe it’s just my, I’m just, I was maturing. I was, I had, I had certain examples where I knew in my deep within my soul, like, okay, I, I have done okay before.
And so this is going to probably turn out okay, but the more
Kristin: you do it, you’re like, I recognize this feeling and it turned out okay before. So,
Will: so I don’t know. See, I’m just having Jesse here is leading me to have to discover things about myself. You don’t even, you’re not, you don’t have to say anything. I just like, I just, I could feel it coming from you.
And I was
Dr. Jessi Gold: trying not to say anything. It’s a whole bit. Just let you keep going. You know, I think that some of the, like, feeling like you failed thing comes from, like, what is good? Like, who decides, like, what that is? And it’s, at a young age, it’s like an A or something, right? [00:26:00] Or, like, in a test like that, it’s, like, whatever the highest you could possibly get is in a number.
It’s not, like, fine or like a B, like it’s, you have to be perfect. So if you have to be perfect, like you’re always going to think you failed because you can’t know that you were perfect on something. And you’re always going to see someone else who looks like they know more in a test center or a friend who brags about something or something where you just don’t feel like you could have possibly measured up, even if you did, because your brain’s like, But you can’t miss anything.
Right. I remember in college with curves, like, you know, you got a 60 and that was an A. And I always felt bad. Like, I never felt good after tests. I’d be like, even if I get an A on this, I didn’t know much. Like, I only knew 60 percent. Like, if that’s what you want, that’s fine. But you don’t feel good after that.
You feel like, Well, I think I got enough right to not fail this or something, but you don’t feel like you actually know the material or in tests like that you’re like, I have to be perfect to get into op [00:27:00] though. Like, I, or you know, get into a good med school, whatever you’re attaining, then you sort of like,
And I think that’s one of the reasons people try to think that the pass fail thing helps. But as far as I can tell,
Will: yeah, I was going to ask you about this.
Dr. Jessi Gold: As far as I can tell, making some of that stuff pass fail has led to competition in other ways, right? So, so what you’re seeing is you’re seeing like kids think that they need like Fifteen papers to apply to residency, like, because you can’t compare them on a score, so you’re going to compare them on their extracurricular activities.
I was always good at, I always had a lot of extracurriculars because I was trying to hide my score, but now everybody has to do it because they aren’t hiding their score, they just don’t have, like, they just get a similar one to everyone else, so. We’re seeing, like, a lot of arbitrary competition, and, like, it coming out in weird ways like that.
Maybe they’ll do more aways because they think they need to get them, or maybe [00:28:00] they’ll do, like, more research because they have to, or maybe, you know, like. It’s less clear how to,
Kristin: how to stand apart from your peers. And you’re still competing for jobs and whatnot. Yeah. Yeah. And
Dr. Jessi Gold: you think you have to. And again, like, what is the best resume you could possibly have if tests don’t count?
So. Yeah. While, as a person who doesn’t like tests, I like the idea of, like, taking out the pressure of, like, that score being the defining element. It does mean that people find other ways because it’s just what, like, it’s kind of what has to happen because we don’t have enough spots. Which is its own other conversation, right?
Which is, like, if you got into med school, should you get to practice medicine? You should. So, if you already fought the competition for med school, We shouldn’t have this problem where then people don’t match. And so that’s a whole nother thing. Right. And so we just have a system that’s like built on competition and arbitrary competition and trying to be the best, or if you’re not like.
You don’t measure up or you don’t get in. And I think the whole system is kind of built like that
Will: and new med school [00:29:00] spots are outpacing new residency spots, which obviously is going to make things worse. But the, um, the matter is. I would also argue that, uh, the, one of the defining characteristics of a med student is perfectionism.
And that doesn’t really go away. I think even if a test is pass fail, like you’re still, the stress is still going to be there and you’re still going to expect perfection from yourself. And so I don’t know, you know, when, when I first heard about this past fail, step one, I was like, Oh, I think that would be a good thing.
But then the more like I’ve thought about it and heard from other people, it just, I don’t know, I think the intention was in the right place, but. It seems like we
Kristin: treated the symptom, not the cause, right? Like it just, it just shifted to other places. So that obviously wasn’t
Will: the,
Kristin: the root of the issue is that one test,
Will: right?
Well, there are also still exams that are [00:30:00] like, there’s still step two and step three, and I think a lot of, a lot of it’s just. You know, put down the line to the other tests. Kick the can
Dr. Jessi Gold: down the road to something else. But you’re like, well, there’s still tests. It’s like what I always tell patients who have test taking anxiety that like, as much as they can kind of get over it for tests for medicine, that there’s still so many tests.
So if it’s like the worst thing they could possibly do and they hate it so much and they don’t want to do it, that medicine is not great for that because there’s so many. Like it doesn’t stop. Like it’s not like an LSAT and then that’s it or whatever. But you have to do. All these other things. So I think it doesn’t work well if you don’t love tests or you don’t figure it out.
Will: Let’s take a quick break. We’ll come right back.
All right. We are back with Dr. Jesse Gold. Um, so glad we got to have that discussion about taste anxiety, because I’ve been curious about that. And I wanted my own diagnosis of what the hell happened to me after the MCAT. So I appreciate that. Do you feel like [00:31:00] you
Kristin: got it?
Will: I feel great. I feel good about it.
I feel like I’m, I’m not unusual and I think you’re the, probably the, the outlier, to be honest. I usually
Dr. Jessi Gold: am.
Kristin: So, that would
Dr. Jessi Gold: check out. I envy, I mean, to be, I envy people like you though. Like my college, uh, my high school roommate was like that. She like went and took the SATs once and she got like Missed like two things and was like, I’m good.
Kristin: Well look,
Dr. Jessi Gold: it’s not
Kristin: like I was perfect at
Dr. Jessi Gold: it.
Kristin: It’s just,
Dr. Jessi Gold: I kind
Kristin: of thought it was like a fun puzzle. Yeah. You know?
Will: It didn’t. Yeah. I don’t know. Your brain approached it differently.
Kristin: Yeah. Look, I never claimed to be a normal person. Okay? Normal’s boring though. Yeah.
Will: Alright, so Jessie, you, you mentioned earlier about, Or maybe I, I’m the one that mentioned it, that you could just, you just like, you sit there sometimes, and you just don’t say anything, you just let the person, like, diagnose themselves, kinda, to a certain extent.
So, that brings up this, uh, the idea of using silence, and um, that’s something we’re taught early in med [00:32:00] school. I’m just, I just wanted to feel the silence. And how, how I thought we were
Dr. Jessi Gold: playing chicken.
Will: How awkward it, it was, I, I don’t know. It’s, it’s, it, I still struggle with it and even though it’s like a, it, I, I, it was like drilled into our heads as a early med student.
Like it’s okay to like sit there and like not talk ’cause someone’s going to say something and sometimes it’s something from the patient. It’s really important, but, oh man, that’s so hard to do. What’s the key?
Dr. Jessi Gold: I wish I could tell you I was so good at it. Um, you know, in psychiatry residency, when we learn psychotherapy, we like get taped and then we watch our tapes back with supervisors and, and co residents and stuff.
Sounds awful. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s sort of like football or something. It’s your psychotherapy skills. And I always get dinged on sort of like, jumping in too fast or not sitting with it long enough. And so, I used to practice like, sitting way past the point of discomfort and seeing if I could handle it.
And I would do that for training and that’s how I’ve [00:33:00] gotten a little bit better at it. I think it’s way easier to do if a person’s emotional. Because if a person’s like, crying and stuff, like you understand that your presence is supportive and you’re there just to like, help them. And if they’re crying, you’re like, Okay, if I sit here, they’ll talk to me when they feel ready.
But if they’re just sitting there staring at you, and you’re sitting there staring at them, it’s weird. Like, it’s weird. Okay, from the patient
Kristin: perspective, though, that is also weird. Like, we don’t know that this is a thing that is supposed to happen, right? We’re just walking in as a normal human on planet Earth, and in our society, if there is silence, like, That’s gonna throw me for a loop as a patient.
If it’s not like I’m talking and you’re just allowing me to continue talking, but it’s literally we walk in, I sit down, and we stare at each other. Like, I’m, it’s not clear to me that I’m supposed to, like, that’s a weird social violation that now I don’t know how to navigate.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Old school psychotherapy, like Freud, that’s what the couch is [00:34:00] about.
Like, really, you’re just supposed to just, like, Sit and see what comes up. Psychoanalysis is like that too. But you know, I think silence does like bring up stuff for people when they get time to think or they get time to like process and tell you what’s on their mind or it might be the thing that they were avoiding saying comes up or something.
But I do think it’s like a skill you should use in certain points and that like just using it all the time isn’t very helpful. Like I don’t feel like I’ve ever had that. That
Kristin: seems weird. Like how if the whole thing is supposed to be talking. I need to, I need at least like a, a starting place, right? Give me a prompt, ask me a question, something, I don’t know.
I’ve had people be like,
Dr. Jessi Gold: what are you, what’s, what’s going on?
Will: What’s happening here? Like,
Dr. Jessi Gold: is this, is this what we’re doing? Right, I’m paying you to just sit here? What are we doing? me a question? Or are you just going to keep looking? You mentioned, you
Will: mentioned it’s helpful for, like, when a patient is experiencing emotion, but you mentioned, you know, crying.
What about the opposite? What about, like, people who are angry? Do you feel like it’s also helpful [00:35:00] there? Like, because every, everybody who sees patients has had an, an angry patient and in front of them, like, what’s, what’s the, what do you feel like is the way to approach that?
Dr. Jessi Gold: Yeah. I mean, not telling them they’re wrong about their anger, you know, like, I think we have a tendency, I mean, psych gets called for consults on people who are screaming and angry because people don’t want to deal with them.
But really it’s like, there’s something that happened to them in the hospital. They don’t feel heard. They feel like they’re being ignored. Whatever it is, the anger is coming from somewhere. And so, you know, being able to just kind of like let them be angry and be like, I, I can see that you’re angry. Like, how can I help?
Um, you know, instead of being like, I don’t know what you’re talking about, that didn’t happen. You know, I think we get defensive when people are angry. Like we want to fight back or we want to say like, you’re wrong. That’s not what happened. Here’s how I was better than you think I was. Right. But it’s unhelpful because inherently.
The content doesn’t matter. The emotion does, if that makes sense. And so, like, I don’t care really [00:36:00] why someone’s angry. If I can fix it, sure. I am listening. But it’s not as much, like, that they didn’t get a glass of water when they asked for it. It’s that they’re mad that they didn’t get a glass of water because they feel alone and scared.
And that’s more important, if that makes sense.
Kristin: Yeah. Anger seems like a trickier emotion because I don’t know that there is just anger for the sake of anger, right? Like, like, happiness. It just is like, it’s kind of like primary colors, right? Happiness might be kind of like a red or a whatever. But like anger is always a, a cover on something else.
Right, like it’s like, uh, an iceberg or something and anger is just the tip, but there’s something underneath that’s actually the problem. So it’s a tricky one because what presents isn’t necessarily the thing that needs fixed.
Dr. Jessi Gold: And it has a lot of cultural context wrapped up in it, like gendered and gendered.
Various different ethnicities have all of these things that being an angry whatever is problematic. [00:37:00] And so people also get very worried about being perceived a certain way for being angry. And so, you know, I think anger is also one of those things that we try to cover up really quickly because we don’t want those perceptions.
So like sitting with anger and just being mad. is not something we like. Like, we want to slam a door and get attention and have someone come talk to us and fix it. We want, like, we don’t want to just be angry. Like, that’s not fun. And so, we always try to kind of cover it up, um, for lots of reasons, but the cultural ones also come into play there.
And I think, you know, I don’t like sitting with anger. Like, I think clinicians, sometimes anger is an easier thing to deal with than other emotions in the workplace. But I think that, you know, I don’t like being angry at patients. I think that’s a really hard thing. And sometimes I am, and I have to deal with that.
But I, it makes you feel guilty that you’re angry.
Will: Well, since we’re talking about emotions, let’s, let’s play a little game here. Okay. So I have a game, uh, that is creatively, [00:38:00] uh, called defense mechanisms.
Kristin: So
Will: I’m going to read you a scenario and. You tell me either what the defense mechanism is that’s happening here. And if it’s like a mature one, okay, because they’re like, they’re like good defense mechanisms and they’re like, not so good defense.
Kristin: Are there? I mean, I guess that’s, that’s a question to start with.
Like
Will: humor, like humor is a, is the classic example. Like would we call that a
Dr. Jessi Gold: defense mechanism or a coping skill though? Both.
Will: I think, yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Dr. Jessi Gold: So like sometimes humor is used because something else is going on and it helps you kind of defend against it, but sometimes humor is used like because you like to laugh and it makes you feel better.
So I guess that’s how I would tell the difference.
Will: That’s good. That makes sense. All right. So here we go.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Let’s test how much I remember. Yeah. Yeah. It’s so funny. Like I was like, Oh gosh, let’s see if I remember the names of
Will: these things. It’s [00:39:00] fine because I did not remember the names of most of these things.
And so, um, it’s, it’s like, you know it, but the, the, the words for them are sometimes kind of strange. All right. So, um, here we go. The med student is in the operating room, uh, holding a retractor. and struggling. The surgeon gets mad and takes the retractor and throws it at the anesthesiologist in response.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Uh, I think that’s displacement. It’s like kicking the dog when you’re mad at something else.
Kristin: Um, but, uh.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Is the
Kristin: anesthesiologist the dog in this analogy?
Dr. Jessi Gold: I think so. Because I think like something stopped him, like something stopped him from yelling at the surgeon. Student because maybe he had a lecture yesterday on mistreatment.
Um, but that would be the only thing I could think of that would’ve stopped that from happening. But throwing it to someone else, I think would be displacement. But I could be wrong.
Will: I think that is, I probably screwed up. I I have acting out. What did you have out? Acting out? Oh, that’s
Dr. Jessi Gold: also [00:40:00] so acting out probably.
It’s probably both. So acting out is like what you, like, it’s obviously immature. It’s like what kids do. Like when I said slamming a door, it’s like, I’m just going to, I’m just going to throw things, right? Like that’s acting out. And so, yeah, I mean, I think the throwing thing is that, and then because you made him throw it at not the person causing the problem, that’s displacement.
Oh, that’s a good, that’s
Will: a good point. All right. Either way, probably not, uh, the best way to deal with No, those
Dr. Jessi Gold: count as, like, immature. Like, um, you know, they aren’t really classified as, like, good or bad. They’re classified as, like, immature or mature, but you can take that for what it is. It’s just like, do you kind of act like you would as a kid to do these kind of things, or are you doing something that required, like, some self awareness and growth?
Right. All
Will: right, here’s the next one. Um, as a consequence to surge the surgeon’s actions in the operating room, he has an appointment. Uh, with administration, uh, to discuss his behavior. Um, but the night before he calls in and says he has to [00:41:00] take a sick day so he doesn’t have to go to the appointment.
Dr. Jessi Gold: So it’s an avoidance tactic.
Avoidance! That’s right. Okay, good. That’s the defense mechanism. I’m not even, I was like, is that, is that a defense mechanism? But I think we It technically
Will: is.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Yeah, I think a lot of us do that. I think it’s a common thing, but sometimes it’s, oh, a lot of these are unconscious, right? Like, we aren’t, like, I’m taking a sick day because I don’t want to go to that meeting tomorrow.
But sometimes we just then feel sick and don’t go, right? And so, like, keep in mind that a lot of this stuff isn’t conscious. Like, you’re not going, like, I want to avoid this, so I’m going to do this. Like, sometimes we just avoid it. Like, we’ll go do something else and overwork because we don’t want to do the other project that we have.
But it’s not like we’re consciously going, I’m not doing this, so I’m going to do this instead. We’re just doing the other thing. It’s like when you had a test and then you’re the
Kristin: night before your baseboards would get real clean. Yeah.
Will: Oh yeah. There you go. Yeah.
Dr. Jessi Gold: You just do. And you’re not like, I don’t want to study.
I’m going to do this instead. But you’re like, Oh, it looks really dirty. I [00:42:00] have, those are so dirty. I have to do that. You decide you
Will: need to clean the top of the refrigerator.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Right. Yeah.
Will: Yeah.
Dr. Jessi Gold: It’s like, it looks real dirty up there. Let me see how long that takes.
Will: All right. Here’s, here’s one. Um, Okay, after being berated by the surgeon, the student, who was in the operating room with the retractor, who, you know, all that.
So he
Kristin: didn’t get it thrown at him, but he did get berated? He got berated, sorry, I
Will: forgot to mention that. That probably would change things. The student, um, uh, is, uh, goes home and, Yells at all the spatulas in his apartment and throws them away.
Dr. Jessi Gold: This, did you say spatulas?
Will: Spatulas.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Um, I mean is that also displacement?
Will: That’s, that’s displacement. That’s what I had for displacement. Okay. So I get displacing the anger
Dr. Jessi Gold: to the
Kristin: inanimate
Dr. Jessi Gold: object. To
Will: the inanimate object that looks kind of like A retractor. Okay.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Yeah. A lot of times you’ll see this, like if you had a bad day at work and you’re angry at work, but you come home [00:43:00] and yell at your partner, like it’s not about your partner, right?
Like your partner didn’t do anything. They just kind of like are in this cloud that you’re already in. And it was easier to yell at your partner than your boss.
Will: I would say that that example though, is healthy on behalf of the student because they displaced their anger to an inanimate object. Yeah,
Dr. Jessi Gold: the spatulas would disagree.
Will: Okay, all right, all right, here’s the next one. Uh, Family Medicine. These are all happening in my, the Glockenflecken Cinematic Universe, by the way. So Family Medicine, uh, finds himself daydreaming. About admin walking through the door and offering him a scribe to do his documentation for him.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Ooh. Um, that’s got to be in the mature set of things because you’re like trying to fix a problem even if you don’t have it.
Um, hmm.
Will: On the list, I have this listed as fantasy.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Oh, that’s fair. [00:44:00] Apparently
Will: that’s the name of a coping mechanism.
Dr. Jessi Gold: That’s funny. Um, yeah, I guess it could be fantasy. Like, that would work.
Will: Sorry, family medicine. Someday, when you get all the money. Fantasy. When your money tree starts growing money.
[music]: Yeah, yeah.
Will: Okay, uh, here’s one. I had never heard this once. This might be kind of hard. After being told after, after being told by neurology that he is a real life walking homunculus, Bill, the resident begins walking, stooped over with his hands, dragging the floor. And purchases size 24 shoes, even though he only wears a 12.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Um, gosh. Um, so I’m wondering what, what your source material was. This story is kind of funny, like part of me would say there’s like a regression element to [00:45:00] it, but it’s not regression. Cause they’re acting like the thing you said they are reaction formation. I
Will: have this listed as introjection. Um, so I’m wondering what, what your
Dr. Jessi Gold: Introjection.
What does that mean? Did you see what I said? When the psychiatrist says, what does that
Will: mean? I can tell. That doesn’t even exist. I don’t know. It was on the list of things. It
Dr. Jessi Gold: probably does.
Will: It’s like you’re, um, you’re told by someone in an authority position that you receive some kind of criticism and you internalize that criticism and then start to actually show that.
Express that criticism in your life. Like
Kristin: projection, but
Will: Yeah. Projection. But in projection because
Kristin: it’s, it’s going internal. Exactly.
Will: You’re internalizing, you’re internalizing the criticism and it’s coming out,
Dr. Jessi Gold: and then you act and then you become the criticism. You
Will: become the criticism. Mm-Hmm. . Yes. Yeah.
Dr. Jessi Gold: In a, in a extreme state. Yeah, homunculus. He’s becoming, Bill’s becoming
Will: a homunculus. A real life walking homunculus.
Dr. Jessi Gold: That makes sense. I [00:46:00] think that, you know, these are the things that like, these are the things that like when you go study for boards or something that like you learn and then you like kind of know that somebody’s using a defense, right?
Like I can pick it out. Like if you’re talking to me, I’ll be like, Oh, like you uh, you, you changed the topic or that thing happened and I might like classify that as a defense in my head, but might not actually know the name of it. Just for those students listening who are like, do I need to use this for the rest of my life?
Or who are like, this chick doesn’t know anything. Here’s how I view it. It’s just like, I can point out when people are doing it, but I might not know the exact name all the time. Oh yeah,
Will: for sure. I mean, I can’t imagine in the situation where you need to know what the patient. Right. It’s not like you’re going to say.
Oh, this is called introjection, yes. Like, come on.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Did you know you were using introjection? Like it would be such a weird conversation. I noticed you were using introjection. Right. What does that mean? Well, I noticed that when they called you a homunculus, you became one. Right.
You’d be like, [00:47:00] that’s weird. All right.
Will: All right. Here’s a good one. Here’s, I think this is good. I think this is a good one.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Oh, good God.
Will: All right. A new internal medicine intern begins carrying around a carton of Morton salt and hissing cardiology at people during nephrology rounds.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Um, that’s funny. Uh, Another example of this.
It’s not humor. . Yeah, .
Will: That would probably work. Another example of this would be like somebody moving to a new country and adopting that country’s mannerisms and way of speaking to try to fit in. Which is,
Dr. Jessi Gold: what I
Will: have, yeah, I have listed this as identification.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Identification.
Will: Identification. Which sounds like a healthy coping mechanism to me.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Becoming like, I think it probably has some healthy components until you become somebody else. Until
Kristin: you
Will: start pissing off the cardiologist. Well just, [00:48:00]
Dr. Jessi Gold: then what is your own identity anymore? Yeah. Eventually.
Will: That’s true. Kind of losing that.
Dr. Jessi Gold: I think that happens to a lot of us, right? Like, I think inherently, like, to get through a lot of training, like, we do identify with, like, the culture of the whatever we’re on to be able to survive and not get bad evaluations.
And so you’re, like, becoming like that. And then you’re like, wait, do I throw things now?
[music]: Right.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Like, is that how I feel? Where did all my spatulas go? Yeah, maybe. I just throw things at people.
Will: All right. Well, I appreciate the
Dr. Jessi Gold: horribly, I don’t think you were the problem.
Will: I want to shout out to the random website that listed all of these words and the defense mechanisms that may or may not be really the names of the things that I was describing.
Those
Dr. Jessi Gold: are things I think I just don’t remember.
Will: I love it. Well, that’s great. That’s great. But you know, you know, it, you know, like you said, you know, it, when you see it’s been
Dr. Jessi Gold: internalized,
Will: you interjected it into your [00:49:00] defense
Dr. Jessi Gold: mechanism. Yes.
Will: Um, all right. Well, we got to talk about your book, uh, because this is very exciting.
Congratulations. Your first book. Um, and, uh, this is called, how do you feel? One doctor’s search for humanity and medicine. It’s coming out. Soon, right?
Dr. Jessi Gold: October. Yeah.
Will: October 8th. So, uh, tell us about it.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Yeah. I mean, I’ve never been a person who was like, I’m going to write a book, but I have been a person who pays attention and has always written small pieces.
And I realized that over the pandemic and with conversations with people that like our mental health and our wellbeing was something I cared a lot about and thought about differently than other people. So I had something to say. And so the book is part memoir. Part patient narrative and all the patients are healthcare workers or healthcare worker adjacent.
So there’s a pre med in there, like we kind of talked about at the beginning and it’s really about like why it’s hard to care for ourselves when we care for other people. And it looks at all the themes in there, like perfectionism is a [00:50:00] big one, overwork is a big one, burnout comes up, you know, licensure, stigma, like whatever I can possibly think of that sort of causes us to not get help when we need it or wait to get help later or.
Judge ourselves for getting help in the first place, um, and I think it’s a cool way of doing the information because there’s research in there, so you, but you won’t feel like you’re reading a science book, and then there’s self help in there, but it’s not like, like, if you’re burnt out, these are the four things you do.
It’s like me talking to my therapist and getting suggestions, or me talking to my patients and giving suggestions so you can get those things from it, but it’s not like reading a self help book or reading a research book. Right.
Will: Very cool. Yeah.
Dr. Jessi Gold: Timely.
Will: For sure. Absolutely. I
Dr. Jessi Gold: think it’s timely. I mean, I think that we’re on this side of the pandemic where, um, people aren’t talking about this stuff as much anymore.
Like, I think there was a time where I was even surprised by how many people were interested in our own mental health. And I think now, for some reason, they [00:51:00] think that, like, we’re fine. Like, like, it’s cool when you take away that stressor. It wasn’t like there were a hundred to begin with, right? And so, I think that I, I like to have the opportunity to like re shine light back on that and remind people that we didn’t just like come out the other side perfectly and we’re fine now.
Um, and also, you know, make people kind of wonder what their doctors are thinking and doing and how they survive these things.
Kristin: Yeah.
Dr. Jessi Gold: I love it.
Kristin: Yeah. I don’t know. Are there very many books or is this one of the first that kind of talks publicly about the emotional lives of healthcare workers?
Dr. Jessi Gold: I think they’re like memoirs and the people who write the memoirs talk about their own experience in that way But it’s probably one of the first ones that actually like I’m rare in that I see health care workers as patients So it’s like a kind of weird window that not a lot of people have and so Like, that angle’s definitely different.
And then you get to see what’s going on in my head a lot, for better or worse. And, [00:52:00] uh, you know, I think psychiatry is like a space that people don’t understand very well and don’t really, like, have a lot of experience with and get scared of. And so hopefully also, like, the secondary benefit would be like, Oh, that wasn’t too bad for that person.
Or like, Jesse doesn’t seem like a bad psychiatrist. Maybe psychiatrists aren’t bad. And I could ask for help if I needed. Or meds are normal or whatever. So that’s like sort of the secondary purposes. A little voyeurism into what it might be like to
Kristin: see
Dr. Jessi Gold: a
Kristin: psychiatrist. Yeah,
Dr. Jessi Gold: at least in my brain. A lot of what’s going on in my brain.
So, you know, that’s its own beast. But I think a lot of us have similar kind of thoughts and insecurities. And, um, You know, things that we worry about that maybe people don’t realize we worry about.
Will: Well, congrats. And definitely, I hope people check it out. And unfortunately, on the cover is not a picture of you wearing like a black turtleneck with a corduroy jacket.
You
Dr. Jessi Gold: [00:53:00] probably, like, Like, so the cover is emojis because I was like, I don’t want like this traditional, like, I don’t want a couch. I don’t want tissues. I don’t want, and they were like, Oh, but those are, those are the doctor books, you know, like, or those are the therapy books. And I was like, please find another thing that represents.
Feelings or my job like just try and I really like it
Will: Just how much damage I have done to the field of psychiatry But that’s another story for a different day. I
Dr. Jessi Gold: should have worn a black turtleneck for the interview and just not talk to you much
Will: Silence. Yeah,
Dr. Jessi Gold: just like just like oh, okay, but yeah
Will: Well, people can find out information about, about the book and, and it’s everything else you’re doing on your website.
That’s drjessigold. com. Uh, what else, what else is on the website?
Dr. Jessi Gold: Oh, lots. I write a lot. So all those kinds of pieces are there. People ask me about like the intersections between mental health and pop culture a lot. So I get to talk about that on different places. Like I somehow am like the Taylor [00:54:00] Swift expert for the Huffington post about mental health.
So that’s, Um, but that’s all there. And then like, if I am going to be somewhere doing book stuff, like that’ll be up eventually, it’s a slow process to get that scheduled, but I’ll be there with some of our friends that we have in common and that have been on this podcast.
Will: Awesome. That’s Dr. Jesse Gold, uh, J E S S.
So Jesse, thank you so much, uh, for visiting with us always. There’s more other things I want to get to. I, I would love your take on, on about, uh, just. Tick tock and, and therapy and, and just what the hell is going on there? Um, just in general. Uh, but that’s, that’s a big topic. So we’ll have you come back and we’ll talk about that.
Is that
Dr. Jessi Gold: going to be the title? Tick tock therapy? What the hell is going on there?
Will: It’s just, there’s just a lot, a lot happening there, a lot happening there that we need to dive into, but we’ll save it for next time. So thanks again for [00:55:00] coming on.
Hey, Kristen.
Kristin: Yeah.
Will: I think you’ve been neglecting our little friends here.
Kristin: Oh, do they need some attention?
Will: They do, from you in particular.
Kristin: Oh, okay. Yeah,
Will: they’re your favorite, the Demodex mites.
Kristin: Love, love it, love a good mite.
Will: They’re so cute, but they can cause problems.
Kristin: Yep.
Will: Yeah, if you get like red, itchy, irritated eyelids.
Kristin: Yeah.
Will: It’s, it could be caused by these little guys. Hmm.
Kristin: That would not seem very fun.
Will: Deem aex blepharitis, they can’t help it. They’re just living their lives.
Kristin: Guess so, but
Will: it does, it’s not fun’s. Not, no, not for the
Kristin: human.
Will: And they’re a lot smaller than this.
Kristin: That’s good. I don’t look like, I’m very thankful for that.
Will: They’re not quite as cute, but almost.
Kristin: Okay.
Will: All right. But this is not something you should get freaked out by.
Kristin: Okay. Right.
Will: You gotta get checked out.
Kristin: Yes.
Will: To learn more about how. Dedex Blepharitis can affect you. To find out more, go to eyelid check.com. Okay. That’s E-Y-E-L-I-D. check.com. To get [00:56:00] more information about Dedex Blepharitis,
I could talk to Jesse Gold for our,
Kristin: I know she is so fun, and every time she comes on, it’s just a blast.
Will: It’s a topic. I mean, just psychiatry in general. That’s fascinating. It really is. Um, and I just, I know so little about it, clearly, from the Defense Mechanisms game I tried. I was sitting here trying to come up with these scenarios, reading, it’s like You should
Kristin: have run that one past me.
You know better than that. Like, that’s more my area. You know, I did
Will: my best. I think it went okay.
Kristin: Yeah.
Will: It’s a bit of a struggle, but we, I want to hear what, what our audience thinks. So, what did you Whenever we talk to a psychiatrist again, should I bring out more defense mechanisms or, uh, do you have other ideas for games that I could play with our psychiatrist guests?
I’m always open to suggestions. You can email us knockknockhigh at human content. [00:57:00] com. Um, also visit us on our social media platforms. Yeah, us, human content.
Kristin: That’s
Will: right. We’ve got lots of podcast family, lots of great stuff. Lots of cool stuff coming up too. At human content pods on Instagram and TikTok.
Thank you to all the wonderful listeners leaving feedback and reviews. If you subscribe and comment on your favorite podcasting app or on our YouTube channel at Glockenfleckens, we can give you a shout out. Like at Emilio Guerrero 3964 on YouTube said, I think my favorite episodes are when it’s just you two talking about life.
Kristin: Oh, well, thank you.
Will: I told you our life is interesting.
Kristin: Is it?
Will: Apparently, Emilio Guerrero thinks so. Okay. And what more evidence do you need? Maybe it’s just habituation
Kristin: when you think your own life is not very
Will: exciting. Full video episodes are up every week on our YouTube channel at Glockenfleckens. Uh, tons of cool perks on our Patreon.
You got to check that out. Bonus episodes of React to medical shows and movies. Hang out with other members of the Knock Knock High community. We have some [00:58:00] open positions available. Come and join us. All right. You gotta work to stay though. It’s it’s a it’s a I mean everybody pulls their weight around here And we’re active in it there as well We all we put in the work early at free episode access interactive Q& A livestream events much more patreon.
com slash Glockenflecken or go to Glockenflecken. com Speaking of patreon community perks, should we shout out the Jonathans?
Kristin: Of course always.
Will: All right, Patrick the CSC, Sharon S, Omar, Edward K, Steven G, Jonathan F. Marion, W. Miss Stiggerendetti, Kaitlyn C, Brianna LK, L Keith G, JJH, Derek N, Mary H, Susanna F, Ginny J, Mohamed K, Aviga, Parker Ryan, Mohamed L, David H, Jack K, David H again, Gabe, Gary M, Eric B, Medical Mag, Bubbly Salt, and
Kristin: Pink Macho!
Will: Patreon roulette random shout out to Sally on the emergency medicine tier. Sally, thank you for being a patron, and thank you all for listening. We’re your hosts, Will and CryptoPlanet, also known as the Glockenplegons. Special thanks to our guest, Dr. Jesse Gold. Our executive producers are Will Flannery, Christian Flannery, Aron [00:59:00] Korney, Rob Goldman, and Shahnti Brooke.
Editor in engineer Jason Portizzo, our music is by Omer Ben Zvi. To learn about a Nutnach High’s program disclaimer and ethics policy, and of course, of course, the submission verification and licensing terms, and the HIPAA release terms. One time, I think we, I just mentioned submission verification, but I didn’t mention licensing terms.
Kristin: Oh no.
Will: And we heard about it.
Kristin: Okay, good. So it’s the certification
Will: and the licensing terms. You can go to glockenspike. com. Reach out to us, knocknockhigh at human content. com with any questions, concerns, or fun medical puns. Knock Knock High is a human content production. Goodbye.
Hey Kristen, you went to the doctor recently.
Kristin: I did. I had my annual checkup.
Will: Did they have a Jonathan?
Kristin: They had a virtual Jonathan.
Will: Oh.
Kristin: Yes, in fact, it was a DAX co pilot from Microsoft.
Will: That’s, oh, [01:00:00] those things are amazing. I love it. They are. It’s just, there’s just so much documentation burden. And I’m sure, did your doctor look at you in the eye?
Kristin: Yes, there was a lot of eye contact. Isn’t
Will: that great? Mm hmm. It’s just, and the, the, the virtual Jonathan, just I’m sure it, it lifted your doctor’s spirits. Mm hmm. Put a pep
Kristin: in her step. Just
Will: to be able to get through the day and actually have like a relationship with you.
Kristin: Right.
Will: Is a huge deal. In fact, uh, 80 percent of, uh, physicians who use DAX Copilot say it reduces cognitive burden.
Kristin: I believe it. It seemed pretty slick.
Will: Yeah. Just be more focused on what you’re doing and just. Do what we’re trained to do, practice medicine. To learn about how DAX Copilot can help you reduce burnout and restore the joy of practicing medicine. Visit aka. ms slash knock, knock high again. That’s aka. ms slash knock, knock [01:01:00] high.
